Open Letter: Dear Femme

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Ol' Jet

Bravo to this post, but I don't understand how femmes are relagated or unseen in any manner. At this sir's house they are the most beautiful, prominent, powerful creatures on earth. Maybe someday, one might love me. I wonder what that would feel like. Empowerment? It certainly doesn't come from my masculinity.

Femme's experience invisibility every time they step out into the world alone
Without being on the arm of somebody, we are not counted, not noticed.
When we ARE noticed there are several different things that can happen.

We get told we should just be with men or that we are pretending to be with men.

We get dismissed because we *pass*.

It's like coming out over and over and over again. It can be different every time. Say we date a trans person? We get told we are straight. As if OUR identity (once again) is entrenched in who we love. Date another Femme and we are told we are not "Real Femmes".

So yes, we are relegated to the back of the line. To the closet. To the hetero world

[Jet]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Femme's experience invisibility every time they step out into the world alone
Without being on the arm of somebody, we are not counted, not noticed.
When we ARE noticed there are several different things that can happen.

We get told we should just be with men or that we are pretending to be with men.

We get dismissed because we *pass*.

It's like coming out over and over and over again. It can be different every time. Say we date a trans person? We get told we are straight. As if OUR identity (once again) is entrenched in who we love. Date another Femme and we are told we are not "Real Femmes".

So yes, we are relegated to the back of the line. To the closet. To the hetero world

I'm sorry, I had no idea that femmes were treated this way. It's very alien to me considering how I regard femmes. Thanks for responding.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by evolveme

I love what you're saying here, and it's important to me too. I don't want to get caught in the trap of negative stereotyping, especially not of other feminine people.

But I posted earlier about how female and feminine people are socialized to "be good" (so that they are more easily controlled and thus more palatable to male/masculine others) and how this is so overwhelming that it forces natural tendencies to aggression into what is termed relational aggression.

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

Originally Posted by blush

I'm not sure what you mean by pointing out that gay male groups do this as well?

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I think that just as women encompass masculine traits, men emcompass feminine traits. That was my read on it.

Not sure either. I read it as certain gay male group behaviors = shun and gossip. Shunning and gossiping can hardly be a female only trait. Maybe it's thread topic specific. From my experience and perspective, males gossip just as much if not more (they have more opportunity for it; again, my experience only). Females seem to engage more in comparison discussions (I am in position at work to overhear a lot *where's my iPod?*) . As for shunning, not really sure. I've had experience to be shunned by both female traited and male traited people.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by evolveme

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

i fought 'believing' you or acknowledging this truth until i got to the part about seeing it in little girls... while i am childless, i am hugely involved in my nieces' life and this struggle-for-power, sadly rings true.

and while i do (reluctantly) acknowledge this behavior, i cannot help but wonder where it stems from (because i want to take the root cause of this 'round back!) and while i do think that we've ALL (to some degree) experienced this 'good girl' conditioning, i can't help thinking about this *struggle* as a form of competition, not unlike a 'beauty pageant', where there can be just one (crowned) winner. girls are conditioned to 'be good', i mean that's an obvious part of it--but i think sadly, more so they're conditioned to 'win' in ways that defeat other girls/women. for some reason it would seem that there can be just *one* female 'top' position (which they can never really attain, just struggle for!) while men are conditioned to work/play/win *together*. (not to mention that this is celebrated as a 'masculine' trait)

i think also, that little girls are taught to not trust *female*, bombarded with messages of 'less-than' and weakness and quite possibly, if grown women are searching to pin-point how and why they've been 'silenced' we find ourselves looking for ways in which 'femmes' have 'silenced' us because we *still* believe that female, specifically femme = EVIL (due to our heavy and as yet, very UNpacked knapsack), not to mention, i strongly believe that we all find what we're looking for...

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

I am using your post super duper Femme to write my own letter to the baby femme that is me. We hear about baby butches a lot. I am a baby femme at the ripe old age of 43! Anyway this is me writing to the new fresh femme me. Yes this is all about me. Hee hee.

Dear Baby Femme-

Why are you scared of femmes? Why do you feel like you are back in the sixth grade? Why are you intimidated by someone who identifies as a high femme? I think it is because you feel less than. I think it is coming from inside and not how anyone else identifies. Can you see that? Can you see that creating hierarchies is bad for you?

I know you feel like a big loser sometimes because you are new. I know you feel defined by others because your first and only partner is a transmasculine butch. It's ok for you to identify and call yourself whatever you like.

It's scary to be in a group of women. That has sometimes not gone so well for you in the past. I know it is easier to focus on the masculine beings in your midst.

I know you feel out of place in a group of femmes without the straight married mom mask you used to wear. It is just another aspect of coming out. Maybe life can be more now than just talking about kids, vacations, home renovations and other things that never interested you in the first place. I know you have seen how exciting it is to be around people who talk about ideas instead of things.

Don't judge yourself so much. Take a chance. Put yourself out there. You can't hide behind your wall forever. Or I guess you can but look at all the wonderful things that have happened since you have taken it down, just a little bit at a time!

Love You very very much my sweet baby femme.

Julie

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apretty

i think also, that little girls are taught to not trust *female*, bombarded with messages of 'less-than' and weakness and quite possibly, if grown women are searching to pin-point how and why they've been 'silenced' we find ourselves looking for ways in which 'femmes' have 'silenced' us because we *still* believe that female, specifically femme = EVIL (due to our heavy and as yet, very UNpacked knapsack), not to mention, i strongly believe that we all find what we're looking for...

When I asked the question do Femme's judge each other harshly, it was a myopic question related to the topic here, and the microcosm that is the B/F community.

In no way did I mean to imply that *only* Femmes judge. Or silence. Or anything.

I also wonder about the validity of being silenced by anything other than ones self. There must be some pretty heavy self imposed borders that allow a person to think this. To me, nobody has the power to take away our voices. We mute them as a willing participant.

I have to do a big ole think on feminine and/or Femme equaling = Evil. I have to think if those are the messages I have received.

If I am dating somebody and another Femme persues and ultimately ends up with said person? Is the Femme really the bad person? Or is it the person I was dating who has free will?

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by T D

I'd like to know exactly what you mean by "male centric"

TD, I'd like to know to whom you're directing this question and the tone with which you ask it.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

SNIP...




there's a book called brazen femme: queering femininity by elizabeth ruth that came to mind when i was rereading the thread this morning. when speaking of a woman the author is calling the quantum femme. it's a long quote but it's a good one:


She's attracted to power because it's like looking in the mirror...Don't touch too softly or she won't notice, and don't wait for an invitation...You can't begin to imagine what sadomasochistic lifetimes she's consente to. Or, those she didn't. You can't know her by defining her parameters, testing her tolerance or crossing her boundaries. Quantum femme has a voracious appetite for the truth and the truth hurts most of all.

I own Brazen Femme too.

This is my absolute, all-time favorite essay on femme. There was a time when I'd placed "Quantum Femme" as my identity in that space over there
<---
on another b/f website.

My fucking god.

Thank you for reminding me.

[christie]

Originally Posted by apretty

i think also, that little girls are taught to not trust *female*, bombarded with messages of 'less-than' and weakness and quite possibly, if grown women are searching to pin-point how and why they've been 'silenced' we find ourselves looking for ways in which 'femmes' have 'silenced' us because we *still* believe that female, specifically femme = EVIL (due to our heavy and as yet, very UNpacked knapsack), not to mention, i strongly believe that we all find what we're looking for... [/FONT]

Thank you for using these exact words. Until I came across this thread, I had been composing a thread titled "Living Less Than" to broach this very real issue.

One of the biggest struggles I have had in adapting to living with/caring for my precious motherinlaw is her very entrenched view of men/males and women/females.

I love my motherinlaw. I treat her as I would want one of my sisterinlaw's to treat my mother. And yet, she is the bane of my existence at times.

She is ENAMORED with men. Period. Doesn't matter the character of the man - if he was born with a penis, its her job/duty/obligation as a less than woman to cater to his every need. Nothing pisses me off more than watching her dote over the uneducated redneck who we have hired to perform some type of manual labor around the house. She sat, for over two hours, while the plumber worked on our well pump. Not did she sit there and distract a man with prattle while he was being paid by the hour, she also made sure he had ice water. The selfadmitted illiterate handyguy down the street for whom she cooks a full blown, southern Sunday dinner. I won't even get started on her view of her son, the unmedicated bipolar, raging alcoholic, unemployed idiot. Nothing is EVER a man's fault - its always "one of them whores".

In all my nearly 40 years have I ever, ever seen this level of kowtowing to males. Never have I felt the need to cook a meal for someone I was paying by the hour. Doubt I ever will.

Imagine how difficult it is to watch this play out, day after day. Yes, I was raised by a mother with a similar background and is in the same generation. However, I was taught that I could achieve anything I desired. I could be, do, have just the same as my brothers. I would like to think that it was my father's way of forming me into what I now call being a "grown ass woman."

This might have been a slight derail and for that, I apologize. I do think that as we talk about femme issues that this is relevant and how we overcome it, bypass it or defeat it is important.

I am tired of being told or it being inferred that I am less than because of my gender. It is very contradictory in what I see in the mirror, what I present to the world and how I move through the world.

My femme is not always wrapped in a nice pretty package with that disarming southern drawl. Sometimes she is. Sometimes she is that abrasive, bitchy tall redhead in lovely, lovely stilettoes that can be hurled at one's head in a nanosecond.

Either way, one thing is consistent... she is me... my truth... my strength... every day.

Christie

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Not sure either. I read it as certain gay male group behaviors = shun and gossip. Shunning and gossiping can hardly be a female only trait. Maybe it's thread topic specific. From my experience and perspective, males gossip just as much if not more (they have more opportunity for it; again, my experience only). Females seem to engage more in comparison discussions (I am in position at work to overhear a lot *where's my iPod?*) . As for shunning, not really sure. I've had experience to be shunned by both female traited and male traited people.

This is for both Blush and Kosmo, and really anyone else that thought I might be asserting something negative(?) about a particular set of gay males.

Relational Aggression is a theory of social psychology. I believe that whenever it is not acceptable or ALLOWABLE for the human animal to attend to their aggressions openly as masculine people more often do (via threats, intimidation, posturing or acts of socially condoned violence) that she or he will attend to them in a relational way. So not only do we see these behaviors in the culture of certain gay males, but also in the business/organizational culture.

I simply didn't want to go into all of that as it isn't relative to the feminine people on the whole and how women and girls are primarily socialized.

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by evolveme

I love what you're saying here, and it's important to me too. I don't want to get caught in the trap of negative stereotyping, especially not of other feminine people.

But I posted earlier about how female and feminine people are socialized to "be good" (so that they are more easily controlled and thus more palatable to male/masculine others) and how this is so overwhelming that it forces natural tendencies to aggression into what is termed relational aggression.

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Not sure either. I read it as certain gay male group behaviors = shun and gossip. Shunning and gossiping can hardly be a female only trait. Maybe it's thread topic specific. From my experience and perspective, males gossip just as much if not more (they have more opportunity for it; again, my experience only). Females seem to engage more in comparison discussions (I am in position at work to overhear a lot *where's my iPod?*) . As for shunning, not really sure. I've had experience to be shunned by both female traited and male traited people.

Male supporter here, invited, swear!

I want to touch on what e is talking about here. I think it's important to recognize that regardless of the culture or subculture, femininity never fails to be the scapegoat. If you look at the gay male community (with which I'm more familiar than even this one), masculinity is praised, femininity is suspect ("girl is such a nelly queen"). If you look at the lesbian/butch-femme community, masculinity is praised, femininity is suspect ("she looks straight, she's not a real femme" or "she always takes up for trans men, she's "rolling over for the men.")

I think we tend to overlook the ways in which many of us are drawn toward certain gender expressions, even when they contradict our socialization. The fact that there are young feminine boy and masculine girl children suggests that gender expression often precedes or supercedes gender norms. We must look at it in terms of biological as well as social constructs or else everything becomes a choice (gender, sexuality) which supports all kinds of wrong patriarchal ideas about the people here on this website.

That's why instead of constantly critiquing femininity, we should recognize that it exists on its own independent of anything else (as is being talked about in here) and can offer its own rewards to those who naturally gravitate to it, whether female or male. We need to recognize that assuming femininity is weak, passive, and only exists to appease, stroke, reassure men/masculine is one way this community is promoting the male-centric atmosphere that inspired this thread. We have to strip femininity from its negative connotations to free femme. I wonder if this has to happen before we can dislocate masculinity and change notions of it.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Ben-Her

I think we tend to overlook the ways in which many of us are drawn toward certain gender expressions, even when they contradict our socialization. The fact that there are young feminine boy and masculine girl children suggests that gender expression often precedes or supercedes gender norms. We must look at it in terms of biological as well as social constructs or else everything becomes a choice (gender, sexuality) which supports all kinds of wrong patriarchal ideas about the people here on this website.

That's why instead of constantly critiquing femininity, we should recognize that it exists on its own independent of anything else (as is being talked about in here) and can offer its own rewards to those who naturally gravitate to it, whether female or male.

Yes, and yes again.

Somebody remember to bring the underlined up every few pages whenever we begin to spiral downward.

I also wanted to say way back there, but have gotten distracted, that I personally and absofuckinglutely acknowledge and allow that femme is not just female, not just girl/woman.

I know some pretty kick-ass boy femmes and others and, for me, they only expand the possibilities of what-all this experience will allow.

[T D]

Originally Posted by Bit

That's a huge question, TD, and may take a long time to answer, if we can ever completely define it at all. For a start--a very oversimplified start--the general idea is that we have all been socialized to equate "male" with "best, most worthy" and "female" with "least, unworthy" and so we bring that into our interactions in everyday life and online both, equating Butch with male and therefore devaluing Femme. The trick is to understand when we are doing that, and why... sometimes when one or the other of us points it out, it's very hard on people who are not used to being analytical or who haven't taken women's studies classes, because they don't have the frame of reference they need to see it properly--they can often get offended and hurt by other people's attempts to explain. It can be hard to create a community culture that is understandable to everyone given our different backgrounds and educations.

Thanks bit, your response is greatly appreciated, and certainly makes sense.

[Jess]

Feeling a need to post something.. anything just to say thank you to all of you for just being. The willingness and openness with which this thread has progressed is absolutely beautiful, powerful and passionate.

I love my grown ass woman, the "femme" to my "butch" not for her support of "me" but for the exacting entity that she is. She is strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven. My girl and my grown ass woman all day, everyday.

I love you all for being exactly whom you all are and for what my perfection is as well. For me, THIS is what the butch-femme dynamic is about. It isn't so much about completing the duality as it is the reverence for that which is familiar strange, reflected and reciprocated between the two.

This is one of those times when my words will surely fail me, so I will remain brief.

In awe,
Jess

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by SyrJess

Feeling a need to post something.. anything just to say thank you to all of you for just being. The willingness and openness with which this thread has progressed is absolutely beautiful, powerful and passionate.

I love my grown ass woman, the "femme" to my "butch" not for her support of "me" but for the exacting entity that she is. She is strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven. My girl and my grown ass woman all day, everyday.

I love you all for being exactly whom you all are and for what my perfection is as well. For me, THIS is what the butch-femme dynamic is about. It isn't so much about completing the duality as it is the reverence for that which is familiar strange, reflected and reciprocated between the two.

This is one of those times when my words will surely fail me, so I will remain brief.

In awe,
Jess

I'm curious then, SyrJess, why you would refer to her as "the 'femme' to your 'butch"?

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Ben-Her

I'm curious then, SyrJess, why you would refer to her as "the 'femme' to your 'butch"?

See, I saw this as problematic too, Jess. Even though you go on to say, "not for her support of me, but for the exact entity that she is."

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Who is she fundamentally? How can you define her without mentioning a role she inhabits (lover, sister, mother, friend)?

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

[Lynn]

I truly love and respect the duality of a butch-femme relationship. It's the type of relationship I choose, and I find it exhilarating and intoxicating. I know that my partner reveres me and derives much of her identity from the nature of our relationship. But, I still struggle with the idea that I am defined in relation to her. "Her butch to my femme." Without the two, one is incomplete. That is why I end up concluding that my femmeness is a trait, not an identity, even with the butches in my life nodding affirmatively to the idea that I am "a" femme. I can't be "a" femme until my femme isn't dependent on anyone's butch, neither their approval nor their partnership.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Ben-Her

I'm curious then, SyrJess, why you would refer to her as "the 'femme' to your 'butch"?

Basically, because this is a butch-femme website. I was referring to my experience within this dynamic.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

I agree strongly. All of this, "I am not good enough" crap is part of the human condition that we play out in all environments in our lives at times. We have to work at acknowledging ourselves as whole and good all of our lives.

BonneMaman, I actually think humans as a whole *tend* to think they are not good enough. I'd go into a long diatribe about competition in all things (and I do like competition) that make children feel like failures if they don't bring home straight A's.

I remember getting HYSTERICAL (no, I am not inflating that) over a C on my report card. I was sure I would never go to college and never amount to anything.

I was 10.

I think I've dragged that grade baggage into my world now. Am I just a "C" femme if I speak my mind? Do I get a "B" if I wear a dress instead of slacks? Is it "A" behaviour to bake a pie?

Originally Posted by Passionaria

I think it is important to note, that we did not create these conditions, we were born into them. So, do we owe allegiance to these false pretenses? What purpose does keeping women in competition serve on a sociological level? Control of women??????

I think that worse than being born into them, many of use (myself included) perpetuate them. I nearly smacked myself for correcting my 8 year old niece with "nice girls don't do that." WTH? Right out of my mouth. In front of my sister and cousins who all nodded in agreement.

And the feminist dyke trapped inside was raging about what I'd just done. She did not get a chance to correct that. I hope I will live to be a better example for my darling niece.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I don't feel that the syndrome of gossip, shunning, or the naming of the slut is entirely based in misogyny. I think it is first and foremost Fear based. So many of us have found a place where we belong after a lifetime of NOT belonging.

As someone who was one of the ones who did shun you and ostracize you, A, I can only say thank you for forgiving me. I bought into negative gossip (and participated in it.) It is one of the reasons I have been working on myself to NOT gossip/backstab/talk ugly about others. I fail. Oh Gods how I fail. I fail at this so much but I will try to correct myself immediately.

I am not proud of how I treated you, but I am glad we made up.

Now about you dating a femme.

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

I just think if ya don't wanna be friends with someone, ya don't, like, point it all out and such. "if you can't say something good about your neighbor, don't say nothin at all"

That's the Thumper quote for me. "If you can't say nothing nice, don't say nothing at all." Need to tattoo it to my TONGUE. laughing

Originally Posted by evolveme

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

Do you think we (girls) were taught to internalize our rage as opposed to hit or fight physically like boys so that we were more controllable? I mean not necessarily intentionally in this day and age, but back when this "feminine corralling" started? I am not sure I'm making sense.

I do think women punish one another by shunning them. I don't know what men do. But the ostracization is stunningly effective on many of us because it feeds directly into that fear of not being good enough. Not an "A" femme.

Originally Posted by Bit

People have beliefs that are vitally important to them--usually they involve "Truth" in some manifestation--and they seem to feel driven to keep others from expressing anything different.

This spoke so directly to my heart, Cath. I had to requote it. Thank you.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Don't judge yourself so much. Take a chance. Put yourself out there. You can't hide behind your wall forever. Or I guess you can but look at all the wonderful things that have happened since you have taken it down, just a little bit at a time!

Oh how I loved this letter. I can't begin to count the ways. Julie, hang in there. Check around to see if there is a femme tea or anything in your area. One of my most vivid "wakeup" moments was in a Hamburger Mary's in Orange County when a certain superfemme smacked me upside the head and told me to stop wearing baggy clothes. And then proceeded to buy me a t-shirt 2 sizes smaller than I normally wore. OY! She's a mean one, that bobble-headed girl.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by evolveme

See, I saw this as problematic too, Jess. Even though you go on to say, "not for her support of me, but for the exact entity that she is."

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Who is she fundamentally? How can you define her without mentioning a role she inhabits (lover, sister, mother, friend)?

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

I don't allow her anything. She is, therefore, she deserves. She was a "strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven" woman BEFORE we met. This is whom I was attracted to then and it hasn't changed.

I knew my words would fail me and in an attempt to simply say thank you, THIS is how we can easily become silenced. ( Some folks asked for examples. Here is one). Sometimes, as it has been pointed out, we use different vernaculars or even "less words" to say something poignant. I said thank you, I will leave it at that.