The Mythical *Pass* for Differently-Abled People

[Plato]

Originally Posted by adorable

We ALL have something that isn't right.... Would people call him abusive? Yep and he sure can be. I give him a pass and deal with him knowing full well what that means. He cannot change.

I have someone who works for me that is developmentally disabled and has the mental capacity of a 13 year old girl. I give her passes all day long. She is 25 years old. She cannot change.

Then there is expecting something that someone doesn't have the capacity to give. Sometimes, no matter how tough we are - we all need a pass.

Compassion for the limits of someone else is NOT giving a pass. Making excuses for why folks cannot change is bs.

I was told that I would die or be in prison forever because addicts don't change.
I was told that I wouldn't walk again due to the lack of oxygen and 6 months of hospitalization.

WRONG on both counts and shame on those who were so willing to write me off.

If such perceptions are kept low and comfortable, there isn't a reason to change. Change is difficult and time consuming. The goals may never be met, but without big dreams there can be no big rewards. The motivation TO CHANGE can only be achieved when the consequences for staying the same are larger than the rewards for changing.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Right now I really really want to be dramatic and declare the thread closed, apologize for bringing this up and make innuendos that I am leaving and boy will everyone be sorry. Really bad.

Instead.

I'm going to take a deep breath and try to figure out where I am not saying this correctly.

Is it that I haven't defined "the mythical *pass*"?

Am I shaming people who try hard to give room and leeway to DA people?

Am I just stuck on my thought and not hearing people?

I hear you saying that as a person with Traumatic Brain Injury, you are differently abled, and that you wish to be held accountable for what you say, how you say it, as well as how you behave. I hear you saying that you wish to be held accountable by the same standards of those who are not differently abled.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Right now I really really want to be dramatic and declare the thread closed, apologize for bringing this up and make innuendos that I am leaving and boy will everyone be sorry. Really bad.

Instead.

I'm going to take a deep breath and try to figure out where I am not saying this correctly.

Is it that I haven't defined "the mythical *pass*"?

Am I shaming people who try hard to give room and leeway to DA people?

Am I just stuck on my thought and not hearing people?

I for one think this is an invaluable thread, and no I think you are saying what you are just fine. if my opinion matters to you, and I think it does. No i don't feel shamed one iota. I do tend to call folks out on isms and for getting in other folks space, when it isn't their place to do so.

[Ursy]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Right now I really really want to be dramatic and declare the thread closed, apologize for bringing this up and make innuendos that I am leaving and boy will everyone be sorry. Really bad.

Instead.

I'm going to take a deep breath and try to figure out where I am not saying this correctly.

Is it that I haven't defined "the mythical *pass*"?

Am I shaming people who try hard to give room and leeway to DA people?

Am I just stuck on my thought and not hearing people?

No no, I think I hear you!

I guess it's just a very emotive topic, and there are all kinds of issues feeding into it and surrounding it, and its meaning has so many different nuances and so many different connotations to different people. It's a challenging subject, but I think we're going somewhere with it.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Liam

I hear you saying that as a person with Traumatic Brain Injury, you are differently abled, and that you wish to be held accountable for what you say, how you say it, as well as how you behave. I hear you saying that you wish to be held accountable by the same standards of those who are not differently abled.

I am saying that I want the same rules.

I am uncomfortable saying that there is only one way of accountability, because people communicate on a myriad of levels.

I am saying that I want the opportunity to be accountable.

That means I want to know if I've done something wrong. I don't want people to be afraid to tell me.

I also don't want everyone to erase all caring and compassion when doing so.

If I had not been thrown out of 10 occupational therapists? I would not have learned that my behavior was unacceptable. So it took me ten times, but then again I was cognitively around 5 or 6 years old. I am closer to my real age now, but it took years.

So usually I am able to learn in three or less.

[violaine]

[QUOTE=The_Lady_Snow;152040][quote=violaine;151949]


We have all joined a site, that has a set of rules, we all live in a society with sets of rules. Be we either NT or not we have to abide to the rules and boundaries that are set by one another or that have been already set.

yes, this site has rules, and yes, there are individuals here who have set boundaries.

So NT or DA matters not, I could use the fact that english is not my first language and I am dyslexic, then again you are assuming we are all NT no?

assumptions, no - & not 'all'.

We all have a knowing of what is right and wrong, if we do not have that comprehension then we are asking for trouble if allowance is being given time and time again because of someone's illness

Make sense?

not exactly!

i'm not sure that i agree with you on the following: 'we all' have a knowing of what is right and wrong".

actually, some things may not be a matter of right or wrong, they may 'just be' - and without any kind of agenda.

i do like to ask for further clarification whenever i'm unsure on a topic, and hope not be read as being in the wrong, or out to start trouble.

ps- if i fork up, please let me know, and i will apologise.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I for one think this is an invaluable thread, and no I think you are saying what you are just fine. if my opinion matters to you, and I think it does. No i don't feel shamed one iota. I do tend to call folks out on isms and for getting in other folks space, when it isn't their place to do so.

Thank you Corkey. Yes, your opinion matters to me greatly.

Originally Posted by urs

No no, I think I hear you!

I guess it's just a very emotive topic, and there are all kinds of issues feeding into it and surrounding it, and its meaning has so many different nuances and so many different connotations to different people. It's a challenging subject, but I think we're going somewhere with it.

Thank you to Urs. I think you are right about all kinds of issues feeding into it and the many nuances. I appreciate the reminder, because sometimes I get frustrated and my brain gets "flooded" which means that I have a hard time processing. I may be flooded right now.

[christie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am saying that I want the same rules.

I am uncomfortable saying that there is only one way of accountability, because people communicate on a myriad of levels.

I am saying that I want the opportunity to be accountable.

That means I want to know if I've done something wrong. I don't want people to be afraid to tell me.

I also don't want everyone to erase all caring and compassion when doing so.

If I had not been thrown out of 10 occupational therapists? I would not have learned that my behavior was unacceptable. So it took me ten times, but then again I was cognitively around 5 or 6 years old. I am closer to my real age now, but it took years.

So usually I am able to learn in three or less.

I am gonna jump out on a limb here and give a specific example of how I try to apply that lens and I hope you don't mind my using it nor do I want anyone to think I am tooting my own horn....

Jess started a thread something about "What do you do". (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...read.php?t=840) SF, you misread the intent and popped off your response based on what you thought the intent was. I thought it rather dismissive and rather than pop off a one liner telling you that I thought you were being dismissive, I took the time and effort to post an explanation that expanded upon the OP. (#17)

You understood it then and went on to make a great post full of non-monetary suggestions.

Was this me giving you a pass? Not to me it wasn't. This was me taking into consideration what you have shared about having TBI and trying to find that different language to communicate the same as Jess. I think that this is the "with caring and compassion" of which you speak.

I think that as an online community, we do no differently than we do in our real communities and homes. I don't discount the lesser educated production worker any more than I want that worker to discount me. Their contribution to the community of our workplace is just as vital as mine.

I know that Snow is making reference to a specific individual and that must be a really tough place to be in.

I do think, however severely DA a person might be, they still have the same needs as those less DA or NT - they still deserve to be here and to contribute in their own ways and I think they still have to be accountable for their actions within the community. I do think that there are considerations and the endless explanations and repeated conversations to be done in order to assist those persons in being here.

To that end, what about a buddy system? What if there were a group of volunteers who rotated buddy duty? I know firsthand how taxing the repetitive explanations can be and how your patience is quickly drained. If there was a rotation of sorts, no one person would be overly utilized and it would give the DA person the opportunity to interact with others and perhaps, through hearing the same message in a different voice, it might just be the "Eureka!" moment.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yeah, I need to step off this convo cause I am not going to be empathetic to the issues, I can understand taking the time and being empathetic but not to the point where I am being dismissed.

I feel if I continue to advocate my set of limits it makes me look like the big bad wolf, I got enough of that going on.. I also would of liked to continue to post without it being pointed out about who has issues with me cause it's not about one particular individual I am talking about people in general I deal with everyone the same each time. Period

I am out.

[christie]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Yeah, I need to step off this convo cause I am not going to be empathetic to the issues, I can understand taking the time and being empathetic but not to the point where I am being dismissed.

I feel if I continue to advocate my set of limits it makes me look like the big bad wolf, I got enough of that going on.. I also would of liked to continue to post without it being pointed out about who has issues with me cause it's not about one particular individual I am talking about people in general I deal with everyone the same each time. Period

I am out.

I apologize if you thought I was out of line in my reference to you, I was merely trying to be supportive because its not like I can't read the posts between you and one individual who has declared themselves to be DA. If you have had these boundary issues with more than one DA person here, its not been apparent in the threads.

I thought my reference was one of empathy and went on to give an idea of how we as a community might be better able to be supportive of your reinforcing your personal boundaries while at the same time being supportive of the DA person.

Again, if this isn't germane to the conversation, I apologize and we clearly see this thread differently.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Plato

Compassion for the limits of someone else is NOT giving a pass. Making excuses for why folks cannot change is bs.

I was told that I would die or be in prison forever because addicts don't change.
I was told that I wouldn't walk again due to the lack of oxygen and 6 months of hospitalization.

WRONG on both counts and shame on those who were so willing to write me off.

If such perceptions are kept low and comfortable, there isn't a reason to change. Change is difficult and time consuming. The goals may never be met, but without big dreams there can be no big rewards. The motivation TO CHANGE can only be achieved when the consequences for staying the same are larger than the rewards for changing.

Some people do not have moments of clarity. In order for someone to change they have to understand the wrong. Just because SOME people have that ability doesn't mean that all do. I'm sure that in recovery you've heard "The capacity to be honest..." Not every addict or alcoholic has it. Everyone will eventually walk away from them and they will end up institutionalized, in jail or dead. This stems from CHOICES that they made.

With mental illness there is no choice to be made. Nor is there in developmental disability or some brain injuries or some disorders. That motivation to change that you speak of only comes with the ability to understand the underlying need for change - a level of self awareness that comes with the ability to rationalize and understand behavior and an ability to control that behavior. Also known as hitting bottom. It can be relative to the person that you are dealing with for lots of different reasons. Not everyone is aware and I promise that all the yelling in the world will not make someone able to understand when that ability doesn't exist. I think it's self centered to think that because I am enlightened - that I get it - everyone else must too so they must be making a choice to piss me off, annoy me, not act right.....then I can take that one step further and hold the world accountable to MY standard of right and wrong.

I have the luxury of choice. I can wake up tomorrow and CHOOSE how I will conduct myself in public. How I will interact with people, how I will wear my hair and what color my nails will be. I will choose to walk out the door just once. But what if I wake up tomorrow and believe that if I don't walk out the door perfectly 15 times that I will die? What if I can't walk out the door perfectly? What if you think that is stupid? Is it better to scream at me that it's stupid, cause me internal panic and conflict then force me out the door anyway because YOU know and that shit ain't gonna fly with you? People can and do kill themselves to stop the torment.

What if I believe that there are people who are trying to kill me? There is no uncertainty. I know it. I hear people that I know whispering that in my ears. I can smell the fear in a room. I see smoke. It's real to people who feel it, who see it. That is their reality. Go ahead and tell them they have a choice to come out from behind the couch. That it's not true. That no one is trying to kill them - it's all make believe. Then, come back and let me know how that worked out for you. I can tell you how it ends.

Or tell someone who is really 13 years old, even though she looks much older that she needs to put down her cell phone and get back to work. Tell her 30 times. Hell, go ahead and tell her 100 times. Treat her the same as everyone else. Rules are rules. Fire her for not listening like a 25 year old should listen because YOU said so. Sorry. That doesn't work for me. She is not 25, her brain doesn't function at the same level. There are rules for our society. By our societal standards she shouldn't even have a job. She can't even chew with her mouth closed. Not because she doesn't know she should, but because her brain can't focus on chewing AND keeping her mouth closed. That isn't funny. That is her reality. I celebrate her ability to have a job at all. I focus on what she does right. I will tell her and try to guide her, but telling someone all about themselves and their shortcomings when they don't have the ability to understand - seems abusive. Who really gets something out of that?

I wouldn't give someone making a choice to do something destructive a pass in the same way. I am talking about the ability to think, understand, comprehend and possession of a critical thinking ability. Not everyone has it. It's rather easy and privileged to think everyone should.

To me it similar to thinking everyone should just speak English or just move out of the projects if they want a better life. It IS that easy right? Wouldn't the world be a better place if people just "got it" and didn't live to annoy the rest of us people with all of our smarts and reasoning?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by christie0918

I am gonna jump out on a limb here and give a specific example of how I try to apply that lens and I hope you don't mind my using it nor do I want anyone to think I am tooting my own horn....

Jess started a thread something about "What do you do". (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...read.php?t=840) SF, you misread the intent and popped off your response based on what you thought the intent was. I thought it rather dismissive and rather than pop off a one liner telling you that I thought you were being dismissive, I took the time and effort to post an explanation that expanded upon the OP. (#17)

You understood it then and went on to make a great post full of non-monetary suggestions.

Was this me giving you a pass? Not to me it wasn't. This was me taking into consideration what you have shared about having TBI and trying to find that different language to communicate the same as Jess. I think that this is the "with caring and compassion" of which you speak.

I think that as an online community, we do no differently than we do in our real communities and homes. I don't discount the lesser educated production worker any more than I want that worker to discount me. Their contribution to the community of our workplace is just as vital as mine.

I know that Snow is making reference to a specific individual and that must be a really tough place to be in.

I do think, however severely DA a person might be, they still have the same needs as those less DA or NT - they still deserve to be here and to contribute in their own ways and I think they still have to be accountable for their actions within the community. I do think that there are considerations and the endless explanations and repeated conversations to be done in order to assist those persons in being here.

To that end, what about a buddy system? What if there were a group of volunteers who rotated buddy duty? I know firsthand how taxing the repetitive explanations can be and how your patience is quickly drained. If there was a rotation of sorts, no one person would be overly utilized and it would give the DA person the opportunity to interact with others and perhaps, through hearing the same message in a different voice, it might just be the "Eureka!" moment.

I appreciate you giving this example. There are totally days that I am not in good form and misread. There are days I don't have my loved ones to read my posts first.

That was one of those days. I would hope that you would give that consideration to anyone. Not just me. Because anyone can misread and pop off.

So no, I don't think that was you giving me a poss. That is not what I am talking about when I say a pass and I think that is where people are getting confused.

Had you taken the time and effort to explain the intent to me, and had I continued coming in and insisting that my interpretation was correct, and kept popping off shitty things? And not been held accountable (reported, pm'd, told in public or whatever) then that is where it becomes something I'd call a pass.

Clarifying ones point and clearing up a misunderstood intent is NOT giving a pass. I also truly hate to think that I got special treatment that you would not give the next person. I hope I am not being rude by saying that I can only remember as reading you patiently explain you point when others don't get it.

It's also a grayer area in the example that you gave because I don't think any rules were broken per se. I think that I was not thoughtful in reading the OP and rude in my reply. Now if I had come in and said: This is stupid. I think you're an asshole" would you have taken the same approach? What if I had continued? I would really hope that you would report me.

So in short, no I don't think you gave me a pass. That is not at all what I meant by giving a pass.

I hope this post gives a better feel for what I am trying to say?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Yeah, I need to step off this convo cause I am not going to be empathetic to the issues, I can understand taking the time and being empathetic but not to the point where I am being dismissed.

I feel if I continue to advocate my set of limits it makes me look like the big bad wolf, I got enough of that going on.. I also would of liked to continue to post without it being pointed out about who has issues with me cause it's not about one particular individual I am talking about people in general I deal with everyone the same each time. Period

I am out.

I wish you wouldn't leave. I want to hear what you have to say.

[SuperFemme]

Clarification: This thread is NOT about any one person. The only personal point of reference in the OP is about me. Adele.

Please do not make this thread about anybody, because it's not and that is not something that is okay to do.

Please do not assume that any one person is being spoken about, because that makes me really super uncomfortable .

[christie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I appreciate you giving this example. There are totally days that I am not in good form and misread. There are days I don't have my loved ones to read my posts first.

That was one of those days. I would hope that you would give that consideration to anyone. Not just me. Because anyone can misread and pop off.

So no, I don't think that was you giving me a poss. That is not what I am talking about when I say a pass and I think that is where people are getting confused.

Had you taken the time and effort to explain the intent to me, and had I continued coming in and insisting that my interpretation was correct, and kept popping off shitty things? And not been held accountable (reported, pm'd, told in public or whatever) then that where it becomes something I'd call a pass.

Clarifying ones point and clearing up a misunderstood intent is NOT giving a pass. I also truly hate to think that I got special treatment that you would not give the next person. I hope I am not being rude by saying that I can only remember as reading you patiently explain you point when others don't get it.

It's also a grayer area in the example that you gave because I don't think any rules were broken per se. I think that I was not thoughtful in reading the OP and rude in my reply. Now if I had come in and said: This is stupid. I think you're an asshole" would you have taken the same approach? What if I had continued? I would really hope that you would report me.

So in short, no I don't think you gave me a pass. That is not at all what I meant by giving a pass.

I hope this post gives a better feel for what I am trying to say?

I would like to think that most days, I give most people that same consideration.

I do think, however, that its a conditioned response based on parenting a DA child. I know that I have had to learn HOW to be that patient and compassionate. I know that not everyone has that skill set, especially NTs - they (at least the ones in my experience) have no reason to - until they do.

If you had continued a negative rant, I would probably have PM'd you and asked what the fuck your issue was. (How's that for my compassion LOL) I rarely report posts because, at the end of the day, I really do apply that 3F rule (if you dont fuck me, feed me (emotionally or sustenance) or finance me, you really dont have any influence in my life and I try to let it go quickly)

I dont think the answer to the mythical pass is to report posts. I think reporting is a tool - one of many and I think sometimes we are far too quick to hit that button rather than challenge ourselves to find that wave of communication that is mutual and brings understanding.

While we agree that no "rules" were broken, I didnt realize that you were only speaking of the "pass" specifically in rules/TOS terms. To me, the unspoken/unwritten "rules" are much more likely to be broken than the ones that have been clearly stated. I have found that my son (and other DAs) have more issue with the unspoken expectations of socialization far more often than the ones they know about.

Does it make sense that to me, the unspoken social skills/expectations about behaviors and interactions are more problematic than what is covered in the TOS?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by christie0918

I would like to think that most days, I give most people that same consideration.

I do think, however, that its a conditioned response based on parenting a DA child. I know that I have had to learn HOW to be that patient and compassionate. I know that not everyone has that skill set, especially NTs - they (at least the ones in my experience) have no reason to - until they do.

If you had continued a negative rant, I would probably have PM'd you and asked what the fuck your issue was. (How's that for my compassion LOL) I rarely report posts because, at the end of the day, I really do apply that 3F rule (if you dont fuck me, feed me (emotionally or sustenance) or finance me, you really dont have any influence in my life and I try to let it go quickly)

I dont think the answer to the mythical pass is to report posts. I think reporting is a tool - one of many and I think sometimes we are far too quick to hit that button rather than challenge ourselves to find that wave of communication that is mutual and brings understanding.

While we agree that no "rules" were broken, I didnt realize that you were only speaking of the "pass" specifically in rules/TOS terms. To me, the unspoken/unwritten "rules" are much more likely to be broken than the ones that have been clearly stated. I have found that my son (and other DAs) have more issue with the unspoken expectations of socialization far more often than the ones they know about.

Does it make sense that to me, the unspoken social skills/expectations about behaviors and interactions are more problematic than what is covered in the TOS?

As for the report button, that is one of three options I gave. Post back, PM or Report. Because situationally any of these things could be an appropriate response to the example that I gave.

Somtimes, I've heard something from a mod that I wasn't hearing from a member. The report button is not a death sentence to me. It's a valuable tool that can help sometimes.

While I understand where you are coming from social skills/expectations that is not what I am speaking of when discussing a pass.

Social skills and expectations are far too subjective to be "policed", and it would be impossible to apply the idea of giving a pass to somebody because it is so subjective. (to me. outside of my loved ones).

I was speaking about rules. Specifically.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by adorable

Some people do not have moments of clarity. In order for someone to change they have to understand the wrong. Just because SOME people have that ability doesn't mean that all do. I'm sure that in recovery you've heard "The capacity to be honest..." Not every addict or alcoholic has it. Everyone will eventually walk away from them and they will end up institutionalized, in jail or dead. This stems from CHOICES that they made.

With mental illness there is no choice to be made. Nor is there in developmental disability or some brain injuries or some disorders. That motivation to change that you speak of only comes with the ability to understand the underlying need for change - a level of self awareness that comes with the ability to rationalize and understand behavior and an ability to control that behavior. Also known as hitting bottom. It can be relative to the person that you are dealing with for lots of different reasons. Not everyone is aware and I promise that all the yelling in the world will not make someone able to understand when that ability doesn't exist. I think it's self centered to think that because I am enlightened - that I get it - everyone else must too so they must be making a choice to piss me off, annoy me, not act right.....then I can take that one step further and hold the world accountable to MY standard of right and wrong.

I have the luxury of choice. I can wake up tomorrow and CHOOSE how I will conduct myself in public. How I will interact with people, how I will wear my hair and what color my nails will be. I will choose to walk out the door just once. But what if I wake up tomorrow and believe that if I don't walk out the door perfectly 15 times that I will die? What if I can't walk out the door perfectly? What if you think that is stupid? Is it better to scream at me that it's stupid, cause me internal panic and conflict then force me out the door anyway because YOU know and that shit ain't gonna fly with you? People can and do kill themselves to stop the torment.

What if I believe that there are people who are trying to kill me? There is no uncertainty. I know it. I hear people that I know whispering that in my ears. I can smell the fear in a room. I see smoke. It's real to people who feel it, who see it. That is their reality. Go ahead and tell them they have a choice to come out from behind the couch. That it's not true. That no one is trying to kill them - it's all make believe. Then, come back and let me know how that worked out for you. I can tell you how it ends.

Or tell someone who is really 13 years old, even though she looks much older that she needs to put down her cell phone and get back to work. Tell her 30 times. Hell, go ahead and tell her 100 times. Treat her the same as everyone else. Rules are rules. Fire her for not listening like a 25 year old should listen because YOU said so. Sorry. That doesn't work for me. She is not 25, her brain doesn't function at the same level. There are rules for our society. By our societal standards she shouldn't even have a job. She can't even chew with her mouth closed. Not because she doesn't know she should, but because her brain can't focus on chewing AND keeping her mouth closed. That isn't funny. That is her reality. I celebrate her ability to have a job at all. I focus on what she does right. I will tell her and try to guide her, but telling someone all about themselves and their shortcomings when they don't have the ability to understand - seems abusive. Who really gets something out of that?

I wouldn't give someone making a choice to do something destructive a pass in the same way. I am talking about the ability to think, understand, comprehend and possession of a critical thinking ability. Not everyone has it. It's rather easy and privileged to think everyone should.

To me it similar to thinking everyone should just speak English or just move out of the projects if they want a better life. It IS that easy right? Wouldn't the world be a better place if people just "got it" and didn't live to annoy the rest of us people with all of our smarts and reasoning?

SuperFemme thank you so much for starting this thread! It is an excellent conversation.

Adorable I wanted to speak to the things I bolded above. I am mentally ill. My partner does not like it when I label myself such. I find it empowering and a way to destigmatize it for me. I have OCD. I've had it since I was a kid. I had no clue what was wrong with me. I just thought I was bad. I was very good at white knuckling my way through life but I still had problems coping and navigating the world. I did hit a bottom and because of the nature of my illness I was able to have the self-awareness to change. I had to make a choice and I did. It was very hard.

Being mentally ill can create a whole host of coping mechanisms or strategies to navigate the world. These are separate from the disease. They do not go away when you take medication or get therapy! I have had to relearn so many things. Every day I get better at things.

It has been an adjustment for my family and friends as well. They have a much better understanding of where I was and what I was doing all those years. There were times in my life where I did not have clarity into my behavior and was not capable of making choices.

I consider myself in recovery from a chronic condition. I do have to make the choice every day to take my meds and work my therapy. I could choose to do neither.

I don't know that my family or friends give me a pass per se. I think they do understand so much better that there are some things that I can't do or do very well. I really appreciate their understanding and accomodation of those things. But I still have to do the work.

So for myself I would have to say strongly and emphatically that there is a choice with mental illness.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

SuperFemme thank you so much for starting this thread! It is an excellent conversation.

Adorable I wanted to speak to the things I bolded above. I am mentally ill. My partner does not like it when I label myself such. I find it empowering and a way to destigmatize it for me. I have OCD. I've had it since I was a kid. I had no clue what was wrong with me. I just thought I was bad. I was very good at white knuckling my way through life but I still had problems coping and navigating the world. I did hit a bottom and because of the nature of my illness I was able to have the self-awareness to change. I had to make a choice and I did. It was very hard.

Being mentally ill can create a whole host of coping mechanisms or strategies to navigate the world. These are separate from the disease. They do not go away when you take medication or get therapy! I have had to relearn so many things. Every day I get better at things.

It has been an adjustment for my family and friends as well. They have a much better understanding of where I was and what I was doing all those years. There were times in my life where I did not have clarity into my behavior and was not capable of making choices.

I consider myself in recovery from a chronic condition. I do have to make the choice every day to take my meds and work my therapy. I could choose to do neither.

I don't know that my family or friends give me a pass per se. I think they do understand so much better that there are some things that I can't do or do very well. I really appreciate their understanding and accomodation of those things. But I still have to do the work.

So for myself I would have to say strongly and emphatically that there is a choice with mental illness.

Julieisafemme,

What a great post. I think that the people around us have a unique position that most others do not. Especially in an online venue.

My family (i'm a mom with three, now four kids) they were kind of freaked out by the me that came home from the hospital. I can honestly say that I am a completely different person now. They had to grieve just like I did, and that is not an easy concept (grieving the living) for kids.

My father did not believe in brain injury. Until he fell in the driveway and ended up with two brain surgeries and a brain injury. (the universe is funny like that). Today he understands because it is his reality.

So my family knows me in ways that nobody else ever will, and as loved ones that passes that we give each other are always on a different level than what anyone else would do.

I know that you do have to make choices every day. So do I. I have to take meds. I have to work hard to have a "day". It is a choice.

I hate mail. I get overwhelmed and cry. I have gone months without opening my mail. I do NOT get a pass. My lights get shut off, my gas, my cable, my phone...because that is the consequence of not opening my mail.

Still, I am choosing not to do it when I don't.

Thanks for sharing. So much.

[Gemme]

I met a woman this morning who is preparing for a double lung transplant. I'd met her husband the evening before and felt comfortable enough to tease him a bit so I was joshing around with him after breakfast. I saw this very thin but seemingly well woman perusing the breakfast buffet. The only indication of her condition was the small oxygen tank and tubing she carried on her person. When I realized that she was his and he was hers, I stopped by the table and chatted them both up.

We discussed the details of her eventual surgery and how it feels to have to wait for someone else to die before you can get better and stronger, as well as the perceptions of others.

I don't have anything especially revealing to discuss about my conversation with them except that it was timely for this thread. I have, on occasion, given those with different abilities a little bit more leeway. That's not to say I coddle them or try to assert my "averageness" above them. But if I know that someone is in chronic pain the majority of the time, I'm going to filter myself differently around them if possible. I may not make as many sarcastic or snide comments as I usually do, for example.

It's the same for me as when I know one of my friends is especially cranky or feeling low and their filters are tweaked a bit differently than normal. I try to adapt to their situation if possible. Communication is a two-way street. I'm certainly no expert on it, but I try my best most of the time with mostly everyone, for I have filter-less days too.

Eh, speaking of communication...I'm not sure I'm getting across what I'd like to.

Take two!

I feel that as long as one attempts to help themself, then I am willing to take a deep breath whenever it's needed or to roll up my sleeves and help them out or whatever. If someone is going to wallow in their situation, even if it is especially horrible, I won't make that effort. At first, I'd give them time to come to grips with what life has dealt them, but if they continue months and months on end with the pity party, I'm not going to stick around and try to help them. I won't waste my time or theirs if they are not open to anything but 'poor them'. I don't have that kindness sensor in me. My tolerance level for those who don't do the work for themselves is minimal at best.

I have a coworker who used to be homeless with her daughter. They lived in their van until they both got a job at my workplace. After a while, they found a small place. I offered my assistance with taking my coworker to Seattle to get new glasses. Another coworker offered the same deal. Our coworker is pretty much legally blind and her not being able to read some of our documents affects her job performance. She has refused both of us. I gave her the info so she could go on her own time. She has not. She and her daughter were struggling with food, so I brought some boxes of food in for them for Christmas and gave them the info to our local food bank, which is absolutely amazing. They have not gone once. They choose to spend their money on other things.

Am I passing judgement on them? You bet your ass I am. I feel as if I've done more for them than they have for themselves and that frustrates me beyond belief. But if I were to see someone who is doing somiething for their own self, whether they are abled in different or similar ways is irrelevant to me, but if I see that, then I will give them a bit more of 'me' than I do those who passively sit back and expect the world to adjust to them.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Liam

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.


A common experience that could be avoided and just with a question or two without presumption. Feels like common courtesy and respect for another person and wanting to communicate- not any kind of pass.


I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.

I have seen that look on my nephew's face so often- knowing he has made some kind of social faux pas just by how others are reacting to him, but not knowing how to deal with it. He feels very deeply about the possibility of hurting someone and totally frustrated with why he cannot always connect the dots like other people (social nuances and cues). He is very bright. So often, it is presumed that he doesn't care about how he might have hurt someone else.

Now he does a lot better because of treatment and organizations for people with Asperger’s and his own family coming out of denial about Asperger’s and getting help as well. For a long time, his Mom could not face it because of his birth defects and all of the physical limitations and medical procedures he had to deal with along with physical deformity. I think the diagnosis also just got lost within this tangled web, too. We all were damn protective of him.

He feels much more cared about when people just ask him about what he said because it gives him an opportunity to not only clarify, but deal with the social circumstances that have kept him back for so long. He feels like he is being treated like normal (he does use this term) people in many ways! Like he is not getting a pass, but some respect and the chance to work through things with others. Just regular human interaction that many of us take for granted.