Ask a trans person!

[Linus]

I just checked online and apparently my Birth Certificate has finally been approved and is on its way!! FINALLY! Now I can go for the SIN card and Passport. Hopefully they will be quicker!

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Linus

I just checked online and apparently my Birth Certificate has finally been approved and is on its way!! FINALLY! Now I can go for the SIN card and Passport. Hopefully they will be quicker!

That is so awesome! Congrats on that and good luck with the rest!!

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by June

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

I don't know that I can answer really. I had some pretty deep roots in the community well before I decided to transition, so I just figure no one pays me any mind because of that.

If there is something more specific you want to ask (me), then please know I will give you an honest, thoughtful reply. I certainly want to help in any way I can.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by June

Thank you, Thinker. So, here, let me put you on the hotseat for a moment. Do you think you kind of got "a pass" here because you were so well known by people, and you were just kind of "Our Thinker" and didn't start out being "other" or "outsider" or even "unknown"?

I wonder how it looks to those who have transitioned prior to coming to the site or even afterwards, but aren't as well known or known at all?

Yeah, I think I probably did.

I remember back a gazillion years ago at the site where I first joined this community. A post-transition FTM joined up and starting chiming in here and there, and I remember thinking... "Who the eff is this guy? He's not a transman. He's here to be an ass and hit on femmes."

Heh heh... Needless to say, I was pretty insecure and relatively immature in a lot of ways back then. Now, I wasn't overtly cruel to this guy; but I did not go out of my way to make him feel welcome either. Keep in mind, too, that he stated directly that he was straight and never identified as butch. At that time in my life, that was all I needed to "not like him". Again...my insecurities and immaturity at play.

I realize that's just me and that I can't project that kind of behavior on to any other member here. But... I suspect there might be one or two (or 80) members who would be as suspicious now as I was back then.....perhaps even offering up a less than warm reception to the newcomer.

I'm just guessing, but I think what probably drives it is wondering why a straight guy would join up at a queer site. Folks see that and get suspicious.......and protective. Think about it... We've already seen the question, "Why would a man want to be at a queer site?" If that's the overarching question when dealing with this man...the lens through which you view him.....then you (general you) aren't going to be completely open and welcoming.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by June

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

I don't have a local BF community, however when I lived in Park County I was accepted and warmly welcomed by a community of women, and that has not changed, since I became Liam. I did not feel particularly welcomed when I came here, and I left for a few months after I signed up.

I don't know.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by June

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

It's difficult to be accepted. I've experienced this off site. As far as on line, I think its difficult because it seems you can't say a without being criticized or called on it some how. That doesn't have anything to do with gender, it's just difficult here.

[Gentle Tiger]

Originally Posted by June

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

I will give this some thought and then respond.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by June

Yes, Jet -- You and I have talked about this before that you are often surprised at what folks get upset about. Overall, do you feel welcomed as a man here, even if you and I have to cross swords sometimes?

No, not really. I can't expect to be validated based on what people think of me.
Masculinity comes from me—from the inside. Am I welcomed as a man by others? No, I don't think so. Except for fellow FTMs.
They are the ones who get it. Thanks for asking.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by June

Okay, so feel free not to answer this, but do you think that only other FTM's see you as male? Because I see you as male, and I am pretty sure others do as well. Just because I get irritated, doesn't mean you're not a guy.

Well again, being irritated has nothing to do with my identity as a male. I don't view it like that anyway. We just had different views. I'm male, FTM and I'm the only one who cares about that. Notice how i stick with about 5 threads and that's all. I keep my distance and I'm good with that.

I don't like discussions or debates or tearing a thought apart to where there's nothing left. I'm not here because I expect comraderie or community or finding a partner. I just post my thoughts and get out without any consensus on what people believe as far as my male ID.. It just doesn't matter.

[The Oopster]

Originally Posted by June

Thank you, Koop (Still have to call you that!)

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. And wondering why some men feel really welcome here, and others don't. Kind of like I wonder how some Butches, female ID'd or not feel welcome or not.

I know some of it comes down to personality, but I also wonder if it drills down further to perceptions. Too male, too loud, too something. I wonder if it's not the Gender, but the person, how we (all of us) interact with each other that makes the difference about how welcome or welcoming people feel.

I'm glad i have this site. If somebody said something about my not belonging here it probably wouldn't reach me ... I have an automatic mute button on and i'm not going anywhere.

I've said it before that I stay here to give back. For a lot of us the path to who we are is a long slow path. I had a lot of stuff burried that needed to be uncovered in layers. I don't know who I'd be today if Nick, malcom, mike, krystal, and mike hadn't been around to be examples for me.

I was able to look at this layer of me because they were there. They gave me the freedom and strength to look at something that was soooooo burried. Yes there are ftm sites but I would never have thought of going to them because I was so disconnected from that part of me. In fact just going to a butch femme site was a total fluke because I had no clue what that meant.

I hope I always keep coming here or to a site like this. I want to be the Mike, Mike, Malcolm, krystal, or Nick in somebody else's life.

Recently when looking up information for surgery I went to a ftm site. Reflecting on my experience with that site, I think part of why a person feels welcomed or not welcomed has to do with their personal expectations.

I posted a few times on that site and felt very unwelcomed. I'm sure I was welcomed but people just didn't respond in the manner that I'm use to. People weren't sharing their experience, just resources. I was appreciative of the resources but a bit taken back that people weren't sharing their experience. If every place I went just referred me to another spot ... I just would end up with one big spinning head. All that made me feel unwelcomed.

Since I have other resources where I feel I get what I'm looking for I haven't been back. I'm sure if I stayed longer I would find a home on that site. If i didn't have support in other avenues I might have tried harder.

For me the window for trying something out online is even much shorter then in real time ... if I don't connect right away I'm gone. I wonder if some of what we see isn't that.

People come in looking for something specific don't feel it and are gone.

[Linus]

Su-weet! *flashes his new BC* They couriered it. And I'm glad I asked for the Long Form (now I have the details I missed!). w00t!

Originally Posted by June

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

I think it's hard for us to say whether it's easier or harder for FTMs and/or MTFs. I think each have their own challenges in their own right and, certainly for online, it's more about what the person themselves brings to the community.

My personal experience outside (RT) has been somewhat positive thus far except for the occasional "one-off". Being told I was traitor wasn't pleasant but it was their point of view (fear?). Since my life as being "butch" was actually short, I wonder if sometimes people do make assumptions about my past (mostly those who haven't met me) and who I am (I totally recognize that this is my thing and have to address it myself).

There is a part of me that wonders if we get our "backs up" before issues happen because we hear about all the horrible things/thoughts that others "might" have about us and it makes us defensive before we even get to the table.

I don't know if this helps but I was curious what context these questions arose out of?

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by June

Congratulations on the BC!

This has come up for me personally out of the numerous conversations around privilege and identifying misogyny and misandry as well as sexism and Transphobia. I realized that I was not seeing some things in the same ways, so I am being introspective and dragging you all along for the ride. It seems like for me, as a Femme that there is inclusivity and we are welcoming, but that's my lens, and clearly there is something going on. I don't know if it's just a "People" thing, how we relate to one another, or if it is something more widespread and deep. Like, if someone posts something ass-hatish, is that systemic, or just an individual not being very highly evolved (Not Transfolk, but all of us).

YES Linus!!! I'm echoing June'y here and want to congratulate you on this milestone!!! Here Here!!!

I finally received my corrected BC from the State of Florida a couple of weeks ago, and I finally feel that it is mine (does that make sense??). I never before felt that my birth certificate was ever really mine before now, but it sure feels that way now. Both the name and gender marker was changed and with less fuss and muss than I had anticipated, given that we're talking about Florida here.

Now, to address June's comments/questions, I, personally, haven't really experienced any real negativity or "rejection", as it were, from the community at large here. I do feel welcomed here, though my filter is probably different from the other guys'. In fact, I feel more welcomed here than I felt at the other site because Jack and Dusa have made it a very strong and outward point that we do have an accepting community here, and we do have a place at this table. From the time this site was opened, that point was made crystal clear.

Now, that said, there are always going to be certain people who are just not going to accept trans folk, no matter what we do, or how hard we try to open their minds. That's okay. Mother taught me at a very young age that "you're not going to always like everyone, and everyone is not always going to like you". I've never thought that you (the generic "you") could legislate or change people's feelings if they didn't want to be changed, and you certainly can't be held responsible for everyone's feelings. Oh, I've witnessed the rows here as certain members have pounded their fists, called out certain obnoxious behaviors and demanded respect, while others just refused to give, and/or became defensive, then turned to attack. I think that's where the "drama spew" that Koop is referring to comes in. Those are the threads I tend to stay out of, unless I just can't help myself and want to drop a comment or two and dash out. Ultimately, I do tend to avoid the hot 'n nasty volatile threads for that reason. Life's too short, yanno, to spend energy trying to "educate" people who, for one reason or another, just won't get it. You can always tell the ones who are trying to understand a concept, versus those who are just trying to be "shit disturbers".

I take people one at a time, based on the individual and the behaviors. I think that, despite some of the nasty mean stuff I've seen, and the "heated" discussions, that this community is a good and welcoming place for me. It's been suggested, by some I hold very dear, that I need to "talk more" here. Thing is, I'm a quirky, strange and extremely introverted fellow and I like to hear/read the opinions of other people. That's how I learn....from listening. I found a great deal of support and encouragement here from other members and they probably don't even realize that they might have posted something here that may have been the only smile I got all day.

There have been things posted, here and there, that have been unkind, phobic or some other class of "ism", but we're all individuals, and you just simply cannot pick up and run with every.single.thing. that offends you, either in real time or online. That's life, and a lot of times, the difference in having a peaceful and respectful coexistence with other people and having a life full of hate, venom and negativity. It really is what you make of it.

Thank you, June'y, for your interest in this, and for all of your hard work to make this site a welcoming and accepting place for all of the plethora of varied personalities. I certainly feel welcomed here.

~Theo~

[little man]

Originally Posted by theoddz

There have been things posted, here and there, that have been unkind, phobic or some other class of "ism", but we're all individuals, and you just simply cannot pick up and run with every.single.thing. that offends you, either in real time or online. That's life, and a lot of times, the difference in having a peaceful and respectful coexistence with other people and having a life full of hate, venom and negativity. It really is what you make of it.



~Theo~

theo, i wanted to snip this part of your post and just say thank you. i've not been able to articulate this exact thought process to save my life.

i, too, would like to see you post more here (or anywhere). you are thoughtful and articulate and manage to say what i think/feel ... and do so more eloquently than i could. no pressure, though...seeing a post from you is always a treat.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by June

Jet, I was thinking about this, and I know from a lot of your posts that you say "I'll never find someone" or "I don't have any expectations", but I think that because you do keep showing up and interacting, even if it's limited, you must be looking for some kind of connection to community, and I'm glad. You may not use this site like others do, but there must be something otherwise, you could go to an art site, kind of like I could go to a Shih Tzu site, you know?

Hang in there

It's an outlet for the art. And you're right, I don't have any expectations.

[Gentle Tiger]

I have been thinking about June's question and of course I don't have a hard and fast answer. I have to say that I think offline it is harder for my sisters (MTF) because their physical transition is harder, especially if they choose not to take or cannot afford hormonal therapy and surgery. I get flack from fellow transmen when I say this but our sisters cannot hide their height, hands, etc. And I watch how they are treated both within and outside of the lbtq (and the rest of the letters yet to come) community. And it irritates me.

That is not to say that guys don't have their share of challenges. I just love it when I am referred to as male because they know that is my preference only to discover that they really still see me as she because I wasn't born male or because I made the decision not to have lower surgery or because my voice isn't as deep as other guys, etc. etc. And I love it when I get into conversations where (for those who choose to be real and honest) say that it's like we (FTMs) have betrayed women by "choosing to become men".

As for online, I think in a setting where the sign on the site or thread door is clearly marked I think it can be challenging for both MTF and FTM at times. We make a choice coming into a butch femme forum if that is not how we identify. And if we make that choice we have to put on our big boy and big girl pants and accept the fact that not everyone is going to want to play with us. To me that's when we simply find folks who enjoy playing with us or create our own sandbox to play in and press on!

But I do get annoyed when a thread opens that is for say femmes, and an MTF participates. And folks have issues because she participates because they see her responding not as their fellow sister who identifies as femme but as an other or as an intruder. I have seen and heard this. They don't understand why a person born male would transition (however they choose) to female "only to be with a woman". And rather than educate themselves, ask questions in the appropriate setting and respectfully, they make the decision she does not belong. And the responses are clearly express their feelings on the subject.

But I also get annoyed with my brothers who identify as male, and even straight male who insist on being in a say "For Women Only" space. If the sign clearly says "Girls only - No Boys/Men Allowed" then we need to respect their wishes and keep our happy selves out of their space. This site was not presented to me as woman only space. Therefore, I look around and find or create a sandbox to play in or tree to sit under. If it were a "whatever only" space and I am not that, you will not see me. Why? I respect the sign. So there are certain threads that I don't post in. If the thread is for hearing from Femmes on a subject, you won't see me posting. I am not a femme so my voice does not need to be heard there. I'm not going to rant about not being welcome. I will be a mature human being, remember it's not all about me and go post in the Questions thread or something. I know I'm welcome based on the description of the site. Anyone having problems with my being here can just go sit down somewhere and take a nap! Same with a thread calling for say those who are white to post. I am not white. So, guess what! I will not be posting. But if the thread is for anyone, I or my sister should be able to post without dealing with someone's ignorance.

But I go back to a point I made earlier. We know we're going to have to deal with ignorance because that is life! This site is no different. So you teach where you can, and you shake the dust off your feet and keep moving when they are not receptive or when you quite frankly just don't feel like being the teacher that day.

I think this a long enough essay for June. *smirk*

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by June

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

Thanks for asking this June, it shows that you do care and that is appreciated.

I think that on the dash site I didn't feel as wanted and affirmed as a transguy, but I didn't really talk about it as much or come out as trans on that site. However, I do feel more welcome and included here on BFP because Dusa and Jack have gone out of their way to let everyone know that we transguys are welcome. That makes a big difference to me. I know that there are members here who have issues with us being here, and that isn't something that surprises me, but the leadership here, including the mods, has been positive for the most part. Thinker becoming a mod is a big affirmation of transguys being welcome and included, to me. I am impressed by that.

As for MTFs, I cannot speak to that as much. I am not an MTF and I don't experience the site through that lens. I personally haven't seen MTFs being bashed on this site, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I do hope to see people who id as MTF come in here and speak to that.

Yes, there are unwelcoming things that go on here at BFP. I think it depends on the person and where we are in our lives and transition (or not), how it impacts us. I am just not someone who takes things as personally as some people do which, as I have said elsewhere, doesn't mean that they aren't personal. I guess how we approach transphobia here on BFP is in someways the same as what is needed with respect to sexism, misogyny, homophobia, racism, and all the other prejudicial attitudes which can tear us apart. I think most of us don't want a site like that, so we all have to do the work to educate ourselves and really listen to each other.

I am not personally going to be driven off by a few people saying things that I find offensive or ignorant about transpeople. That is a personal stance for me, and I think I am able to do that because I know that no matter what someone else says about me, or people like me, that I am a good guy with a big heart and I deserve a place at the table like anyone else. I refuse to allow anyone to take that away from me. As long as Dusa and Jack say I am welcome, then I like this place and many of the people here and I am staying.

[The Oopster]

Originally Posted by June

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

Originally Posted by Thinker

I don't know that I can answer really. I had some pretty deep roots in the community well before I decided to transition, so I just figure no one pays me any mind because of that.

If there is something more specific you want to ask (me), then please know I will give you an honest, thoughtful reply. I certainly want to help in any way I can.

Originally Posted by June

Thank you, Thinker. So, here, let me put you on the hotseat for a moment. Do you think you kind of got "a pass" here because you were so well known by people, and you were just kind of "Our Thinker" and didn't start out being "other" or "outsider" or even "unknown"?

I wonder how it looks to those who have transitioned prior to coming to the site or even afterwards, but aren't as well known or known at all?

I feel like I'm in pretty much the same boat as thinker.

Yet i know that there are other people that have been in the community then trasitioned that haven't felt welcomed.

It's hard I know i've seen non welcoming stuff at times but I guess I've always seen it more as a certain persons personality and not as something from the community as a whole. Unfortunately someone new won't know that "that is just unfortunately how so and so acts."

We all have people that we see them post and we either know to stay out of the thread or just wait on the edge of our seat for the drama to spew forth. Unfortunately some people know how to insight drama and still stay within the TOS.

I guess the only way I can think of helping out in those situations is for people to give the newcomer assurance privately also. Sometimes addressing within the threads just helps keep the other person baited. (I just thought of this ... I just usually avoid all together. So thanks for asking because now i'll be more aware of how to support that new person.)

I feel like i'm rambling so i hope i said something ... darn heat!

[little man]

Originally Posted by June

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

i think it likely depends on where you're at and who you're with. this site, in particular, has been extremely welcoming to all from the get go. i think for folks like thinker, koop, theo and myself...we were readily accepted here because of relationship and history nurtured on the dash. with that groundwork laid, i think it's likely more welcoming to new guys here. i suspect the same is true for MtF folks who have migrated here. (i can't really speak to it with any authority, though).

so far as r/t communities go...well, i'm not all that socially adept (as you know, june). like theo, i'm fairly introverted and don't really do groups well. i've lived in different parts of the country and have noticed some places are more open/accepting of B-F dynamics than others. being back in the midwest, i do recall feeling like a bit of a pariah for being "so butch" prior to transition. people who knew me didn't care so much about that and just took it as a part of who i was. i haven't really run into many folks i've known here since transitioning. the few i have seen have been very welcoming and accepting (read as not surprised). i haven't really been out to any queer social space since coming back here. i'm not sure how i'd be taken there. the way i've seen MtFs treated in r/t in this area has been 'tolerated'. i think it also comes down to knowing that person as an individual.

so far as disparity between levels of acceptance between MtF and Ftm? i suspect we guys have an easier time of it in general. i think that's based on appearance and ability to blend in rather than stand out. i suspect that MtFs who don't pass easily or well fall into the drag queen category for many folks. i stand by previous statements about people being lazy and not looking to expand their understanding of anything or anyone outside their little worlds.

how to remedy this? awareness, of course. but, how do you make people interested enough in things outside their realm of experience to effect change? (speaking to r/t rather than this site.



Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

is this helpful at all? or did i just sidestep your whole point? i do ramble....