Ask a trans person!

[Jet]

Originally Posted by June

Okay, so feel free not to answer this, but do you think that only other FTM's see you as male? Because I see you as male, and I am pretty sure others do as well. Just because I get irritated, doesn't mean you're not a guy.

Well again, being irritated has nothing to do with my identity as a male. I don't view it like that anyway. We just had different views. I'm male, FTM and I'm the only one who cares about that. Notice how i stick with about 5 threads and that's all. I keep my distance and I'm good with that.

I don't like discussions or debates or tearing a thought apart to where there's nothing left. I'm not here because I expect comraderie or community or finding a partner. I just post my thoughts and get out without any consensus on what people believe as far as my male ID.. It just doesn't matter.

[The Oopster]

Originally Posted by June

Thank you, Koop (Still have to call you that!)

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. And wondering why some men feel really welcome here, and others don't. Kind of like I wonder how some Butches, female ID'd or not feel welcome or not.

I know some of it comes down to personality, but I also wonder if it drills down further to perceptions. Too male, too loud, too something. I wonder if it's not the Gender, but the person, how we (all of us) interact with each other that makes the difference about how welcome or welcoming people feel.

I'm glad i have this site. If somebody said something about my not belonging here it probably wouldn't reach me ... I have an automatic mute button on and i'm not going anywhere.

I've said it before that I stay here to give back. For a lot of us the path to who we are is a long slow path. I had a lot of stuff burried that needed to be uncovered in layers. I don't know who I'd be today if Nick, malcom, mike, krystal, and mike hadn't been around to be examples for me.

I was able to look at this layer of me because they were there. They gave me the freedom and strength to look at something that was soooooo burried. Yes there are ftm sites but I would never have thought of going to them because I was so disconnected from that part of me. In fact just going to a butch femme site was a total fluke because I had no clue what that meant.

I hope I always keep coming here or to a site like this. I want to be the Mike, Mike, Malcolm, krystal, or Nick in somebody else's life.

Recently when looking up information for surgery I went to a ftm site. Reflecting on my experience with that site, I think part of why a person feels welcomed or not welcomed has to do with their personal expectations.

I posted a few times on that site and felt very unwelcomed. I'm sure I was welcomed but people just didn't respond in the manner that I'm use to. People weren't sharing their experience, just resources. I was appreciative of the resources but a bit taken back that people weren't sharing their experience. If every place I went just referred me to another spot ... I just would end up with one big spinning head. All that made me feel unwelcomed.

Since I have other resources where I feel I get what I'm looking for I haven't been back. I'm sure if I stayed longer I would find a home on that site. If i didn't have support in other avenues I might have tried harder.

For me the window for trying something out online is even much shorter then in real time ... if I don't connect right away I'm gone. I wonder if some of what we see isn't that.

People come in looking for something specific don't feel it and are gone.

[Linus]

Su-weet! *flashes his new BC* They couriered it. And I'm glad I asked for the Long Form (now I have the details I missed!). w00t!

Originally Posted by June

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

I think it's hard for us to say whether it's easier or harder for FTMs and/or MTFs. I think each have their own challenges in their own right and, certainly for online, it's more about what the person themselves brings to the community.

My personal experience outside (RT) has been somewhat positive thus far except for the occasional "one-off". Being told I was traitor wasn't pleasant but it was their point of view (fear?). Since my life as being "butch" was actually short, I wonder if sometimes people do make assumptions about my past (mostly those who haven't met me) and who I am (I totally recognize that this is my thing and have to address it myself).

There is a part of me that wonders if we get our "backs up" before issues happen because we hear about all the horrible things/thoughts that others "might" have about us and it makes us defensive before we even get to the table.

I don't know if this helps but I was curious what context these questions arose out of?

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by June

Congratulations on the BC!

This has come up for me personally out of the numerous conversations around privilege and identifying misogyny and misandry as well as sexism and Transphobia. I realized that I was not seeing some things in the same ways, so I am being introspective and dragging you all along for the ride. It seems like for me, as a Femme that there is inclusivity and we are welcoming, but that's my lens, and clearly there is something going on. I don't know if it's just a "People" thing, how we relate to one another, or if it is something more widespread and deep. Like, if someone posts something ass-hatish, is that systemic, or just an individual not being very highly evolved (Not Transfolk, but all of us).

YES Linus!!! I'm echoing June'y here and want to congratulate you on this milestone!!! Here Here!!!

I finally received my corrected BC from the State of Florida a couple of weeks ago, and I finally feel that it is mine (does that make sense??). I never before felt that my birth certificate was ever really mine before now, but it sure feels that way now. Both the name and gender marker was changed and with less fuss and muss than I had anticipated, given that we're talking about Florida here.

Now, to address June's comments/questions, I, personally, haven't really experienced any real negativity or "rejection", as it were, from the community at large here. I do feel welcomed here, though my filter is probably different from the other guys'. In fact, I feel more welcomed here than I felt at the other site because Jack and Dusa have made it a very strong and outward point that we do have an accepting community here, and we do have a place at this table. From the time this site was opened, that point was made crystal clear.

Now, that said, there are always going to be certain people who are just not going to accept trans folk, no matter what we do, or how hard we try to open their minds. That's okay. Mother taught me at a very young age that "you're not going to always like everyone, and everyone is not always going to like you". I've never thought that you (the generic "you") could legislate or change people's feelings if they didn't want to be changed, and you certainly can't be held responsible for everyone's feelings. Oh, I've witnessed the rows here as certain members have pounded their fists, called out certain obnoxious behaviors and demanded respect, while others just refused to give, and/or became defensive, then turned to attack. I think that's where the "drama spew" that Koop is referring to comes in. Those are the threads I tend to stay out of, unless I just can't help myself and want to drop a comment or two and dash out. Ultimately, I do tend to avoid the hot 'n nasty volatile threads for that reason. Life's too short, yanno, to spend energy trying to "educate" people who, for one reason or another, just won't get it. You can always tell the ones who are trying to understand a concept, versus those who are just trying to be "shit disturbers".

I take people one at a time, based on the individual and the behaviors. I think that, despite some of the nasty mean stuff I've seen, and the "heated" discussions, that this community is a good and welcoming place for me. It's been suggested, by some I hold very dear, that I need to "talk more" here. Thing is, I'm a quirky, strange and extremely introverted fellow and I like to hear/read the opinions of other people. That's how I learn....from listening. I found a great deal of support and encouragement here from other members and they probably don't even realize that they might have posted something here that may have been the only smile I got all day.

There have been things posted, here and there, that have been unkind, phobic or some other class of "ism", but we're all individuals, and you just simply cannot pick up and run with every.single.thing. that offends you, either in real time or online. That's life, and a lot of times, the difference in having a peaceful and respectful coexistence with other people and having a life full of hate, venom and negativity. It really is what you make of it.

Thank you, June'y, for your interest in this, and for all of your hard work to make this site a welcoming and accepting place for all of the plethora of varied personalities. I certainly feel welcomed here.

~Theo~

[little man]

Originally Posted by theoddz

There have been things posted, here and there, that have been unkind, phobic or some other class of "ism", but we're all individuals, and you just simply cannot pick up and run with every.single.thing. that offends you, either in real time or online. That's life, and a lot of times, the difference in having a peaceful and respectful coexistence with other people and having a life full of hate, venom and negativity. It really is what you make of it.



~Theo~

theo, i wanted to snip this part of your post and just say thank you. i've not been able to articulate this exact thought process to save my life.

i, too, would like to see you post more here (or anywhere). you are thoughtful and articulate and manage to say what i think/feel ... and do so more eloquently than i could. no pressure, though...seeing a post from you is always a treat.

[atomiczombie]

June, as I think about this more, I am feeling somewhat weird about this discussion because Dylan isn't here participating. He is the most vocal person on the site who calls attention to transphobia. Of course this is an issue about all of us and not just about Dylan. The fact remains, his voice is absent and I feel that absence.

I saw what happened in the misogyny thread and some nasty things were said by many people. When AJ and Dylan expressed different points of view on a particular issue regarding transphobia, several people jumped in and decided to take that opportunity to jump on Dylan. Dylan did what he often does, which is strongly defend himself and attack back. I saw people complain that it had become the Dylan thread, which I think is bullshit because if certain people hadn't jumped all over him it wouldn't be. And what bothered me even more, June, was that you said that every thread where Dylan participates becomes the Dylan thread. That was really messed up because it was a personal dig at him and not speaking to the issues.

Yes, it was in the red zone so it's not moderated. That doesn't mean that it's ok to treat a member like that, no matter how you perceive that person as treating you. The way that whole thing went down seemed really unfair and I don't blame anyone who saw transphobia going on there. There were a lot of elements to what was going on, but dumping on the guy who is the most vocal about calling out transphobia, whether you agree with him or not, has an impact, on me as a transguy that feels icky. I say feels and not felt because I still feel icky about it. And now he isn't here at the moment, and I suspect that the whole episode in that thread has a lot to do with that. So June, I think your participation in the Dylan bashing, as not only a member but also a moderator (and I know you weren't moderating him or anyone in that post, just speaking as a member) just adds to the stink of it all.

I applaud you for coming in here and taking the time to ask questions and listen to us, and to try to learn from us. I just need to say that what I saw happen with Dylan doesn't leave me with warm fuzzy feelings about how transguys are treated here. For god's sake, he was calling out transphobia, and he got reamed for it by a handful of members, and then you made your comment. Can you see how that comes across?

[Jet]

(Above)
Precisely why I don't partake in many threads and why I don't feel that "sense of community." I don't like many topics or the way people treat each other.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

June, as I think about this more, I am feeling somewhat weird about this discussion because Dylan isn't here participating. He is the most vocal person on the site who calls attention to transphobia. Of course this is an issue about all of us and not just about Dylan. The fact remains, his voice is absent and I feel that absence.

I saw what happened in the misogyny thread and some nasty things were said by many people. When AJ and Dylan expressed different points of view on a particular issue regarding transphobia, several people jumped in and decided to take that opportunity to jump on Dylan. Dylan did what he often does, which is strongly defend himself and attack back. I saw people complain that it had become the Dylan thread, which I think is bullshit because if certain people hadn't jumped all over him it wouldn't be. And what bothered me even more, June, was that you said that every thread where Dylan participates becomes the Dylan thread. That was really messed up because it was a personal dig at him and not speaking to the issues.

So June,Yes, it was in the red zone so it's not moderated. That doesn't mean that it's ok to treat a member like that, no matter how you perceive that person as treating you. The way that whole thing went down seemed really unfair and I don't blame anyone who saw transphobia going on there. There were a lot of elements to what was going on, but dumping on the guy who is the most vocal about calling out transphobia, whether you agree with him or not, has an impact, on me as a transguy that feels icky. I say feels and not felt because I still feel icky about it. And now he isn't here at the moment, and I suspect that the whole episode in that thread has a lot to do with that. I think your participation in the Dylan bashing, as not only a member but also a moderator (and I know you weren't moderating him or anyone in that post, just speaking as a member) just adds to the stink of it all.

I applaud you for coming in here and taking the time to ask questions and listen to us, and to try to learn from us. I just need to say that what I saw happen with Dylan doesn't leave me with warm fuzzy feelings about how transguys are treated here. For god's sake, he was calling out transphobia, and he got reamed for it by a handful of members, and then you made your comment. Can you see how that comes across?

Because I have avoided posting for a while, I have forgotten how to "snip", however, the aspect of this post I would like to comment on was the "reason" I saw that Dylan was used as an example of sexism on a thread regarding sexism.

I believe it was BonneMaman who pointed out that the thread had veered off course from "sexism and misogyny" to "transphobia" and that she questioned why a male voice had taken over the conversation. That was what I got out of the post that was made that seemed to be the jumping point for what I think AZ sees as bashing Dylan. I don't always agree with Dylan, but I do try to hear him in his battle for trans rights and equality and/or just assisting folks see their own "isms".

Understand please, that at least for me, a discussion regarding sexism ( against women) is not at all the place for a man/male to come in and re-direct. It is seen as just more sexism. Does that make sense?

I have so many questions of a very personal nature that fall right into place with this current conversation, yet like Jet, it feels like sometimes if you have any thoughts/ questions other than those that flow along with the vocal majority , it is wrong to do so. I am trying to learn a new way of asking questions and it is very new and uncomfortable for me to do so. I am grateful to have found the patience and willingness to put myself out there again in order to perhaps gain more patience and tolerance and further understanding.

Frankly, I have not seen this site/ community being unwelcoming to transfolk. I believe very strongly that not unlike the brilliant article Linus posted recently, we all come here with our own set ideas and even when faced with new "facts" we are ( or can be) reluctant to change. It doesn't help when questions ( even asked out of confusion/ frustration) are met with accusations of an "ism". That just doesn't help. It may be "true" or informative, but it does nothing for community building.

I am no longer sure how to ask questions without the risk of being taken wrong when I ask "why do_____" . I appreciate the very frank discussion I see going on here and would like to continue reading as like any other topic I get more out of many voices as opposed to a singular chorus singing the same tune.
Thank you all.
Jess

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Jess

Because I have avoided posting for a while, I have forgotten how to "snip", however, the aspect of this post I would like to comment on was the "reason" I saw that Dylan was used as an example of sexism on a thread regarding sexism.

I believe it was BonneMaman who pointed out that the thread had veered off course from "sexism and misogyny" to "transphobia" and that she questioned why a male voice had taken over the conversation. That was what I got out of the post that was made that seemed to be the jumping point for what I think AZ sees as bashing Dylan. I don't always agree with Dylan, but I do try to hear him in his battle for trans rights and equality and/or just assisting folks see their own "isms".

Understand please, that at least for me, a discussion regarding sexism ( against women) is not at all the place for a man/male to come in and re-direct. It is seen as just more sexism. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. But I think there are 2 ways of looking at it. Dylan saw someone post something that appeared to him to be transphobic. He went into that thread to point that out. Some people saw his pointing that out as him being sexist. He defended himself. And we know what transpired after that. It is a difficult thing for a transguy like me to figure out; should I respect the OP and only address the main topic? What do I do when I see someone say something in a thread about misogyny that appears to me to be transphobic? Do I have to just say nothing for fear that my saying something might be read as "re-directing" or taking over the thread? My point here is that some times there is a no-win situation.

And by the way, you said for a "man/male to come in and re-direct". I hope you know that Linus started that thread, and that men were welcome to post there too.

A few months ago there was a thread all about femmes for femmes. I never posted there because it was expressly for femmes only. I had at the time and still have no issue with that. What made me uneasy was when I read some posts that appeared (and I always say appeared because I allow for the possibility that what I perceive may be wrong) to me to be a bit over-generalizing about masculine people acting in very sexist and disgusting ways. I read these posts and thought, hey, not all guys are like that! I am not like that! It seemed very unfair how we were being characterized as all under the same tent. Instead of posting in the thread I just sat on my feelings and felt icky. I stopped reading it and kind of disappeared from the site for a while because my anxiety was getting worse again. My point in sharing this experience is that I don't blame Dylan for going into the misogyny thread and saying something when he saw something that seemed unfair to him. Was he trying to take over the thread and re-direct it? I didn't see that as his intent. I can see how some others might see it that way, but there's at least 2 sides to everything. I just don't see that it's all so cut and dried.

My only point in bringing up what happened to Dylan is that for me, as a fellow transguy, it does make an impression on me about some of the people on this site. It does in no way change my perception of Jack and Dusa. I still feel welcome by them and that does give me that warm fuzzy feeling.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by June

Jet, I was thinking about this, and I know from a lot of your posts that you say "I'll never find someone" or "I don't have any expectations", but I think that because you do keep showing up and interacting, even if it's limited, you must be looking for some kind of connection to community, and I'm glad. You may not use this site like others do, but there must be something otherwise, you could go to an art site, kind of like I could go to a Shih Tzu site, you know?

Hang in there

It's an outlet for the art. And you're right, I don't have any expectations.