Ask a trans person!

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Jess

Because I have avoided posting for a while, I have forgotten how to "snip", however, the aspect of this post I would like to comment on was the "reason" I saw that Dylan was used as an example of sexism on a thread regarding sexism.

I believe it was BonneMaman who pointed out that the thread had veered off course from "sexism and misogyny" to "transphobia" and that she questioned why a male voice had taken over the conversation. That was what I got out of the post that was made that seemed to be the jumping point for what I think AZ sees as bashing Dylan. I don't always agree with Dylan, but I do try to hear him in his battle for trans rights and equality and/or just assisting folks see their own "isms".

Understand please, that at least for me, a discussion regarding sexism ( against women) is not at all the place for a man/male to come in and re-direct. It is seen as just more sexism. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. But I think there are 2 ways of looking at it. Dylan saw someone post something that appeared to him to be transphobic. He went into that thread to point that out. Some people saw his pointing that out as him being sexist. He defended himself. And we know what transpired after that. It is a difficult thing for a transguy like me to figure out; should I respect the OP and only address the main topic? What do I do when I see someone say something in a thread about misogyny that appears to me to be transphobic? Do I have to just say nothing for fear that my saying something might be read as "re-directing" or taking over the thread? My point here is that some times there is a no-win situation.

And by the way, you said for a "man/male to come in and re-direct". I hope you know that Linus started that thread, and that men were welcome to post there too.

A few months ago there was a thread all about femmes for femmes. I never posted there because it was expressly for femmes only. I had at the time and still have no issue with that. What made me uneasy was when I read some posts that appeared (and I always say appeared because I allow for the possibility that what I perceive may be wrong) to me to be a bit over-generalizing about masculine people acting in very sexist and disgusting ways. I read these posts and thought, hey, not all guys are like that! I am not like that! It seemed very unfair how we were being characterized as all under the same tent. Instead of posting in the thread I just sat on my feelings and felt icky. I stopped reading it and kind of disappeared from the site for a while because my anxiety was getting worse again. My point in sharing this experience is that I don't blame Dylan for going into the misogyny thread and saying something when he saw something that seemed unfair to him. Was he trying to take over the thread and re-direct it? I didn't see that as his intent. I can see how some others might see it that way, but there's at least 2 sides to everything. I just don't see that it's all so cut and dried.

My only point in bringing up what happened to Dylan is that for me, as a fellow transguy, it does make an impression on me about some of the people on this site. It does in no way change my perception of Jack and Dusa. I still feel welcome by them and that does give me that warm fuzzy feeling.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

It does make sense. But I think there are 2 ways of looking at it. Dylan saw someone post something that appeared to him to be transphobic. He went into that thread to point that out. Some people saw his pointing that out as him being sexist. He defended himself. And we know what transpired after that. It is a difficult thing for a transguy like me to figure out; should I respect the OP and only address the main topic? What do I do when I see someone say something in a thread about misogyny that appears to me to be transphobic? Do I have to just say nothing for fear that my saying something might be read as "re-directing" or taking over the thread? My point here is that some times there is a no-win situation.

And by the way, you said for a "man/male to come in and re-direct". I hope you know that Linus started that thread, and that men were welcome to post there too.

A few months ago there was a thread all about femmes for femmes. I never posted there because it was expressly for femmes only. I had at the time and still have no issue with that. What made me uneasy was when I read some posts that appeared (and I always say appeared because I allow for the possibility that what I perceive may be wrong) to me to be a bit over-generalizing about masculine people acting in very sexist and disgusting ways. I read these posts and thought, hey, not all guys are like that! I am not like that! It seemed very unfair how we were being characterized as all under the same tent. Instead of posting in the thread I just sat on my feelings and felt icky. I stopped reading it and kind of disappeared from the site for a while because my anxiety was getting worse again. My point in sharing this experience is that I don't blame Dylan for going into the misogyny thread and saying something when he saw something that seemed unfair to him. Was he trying to take over the thread and re-direct it? I didn't see that as his intent. I can see how some others might see it that way, but there's at least 2 sides to everything. I just don't see that it's all so cut and dried.

My only point in bringing up what happened to Dylan is that for me, as a fellow transguy, it does make an impression on me about some of the people on this site. It does in no way change my perception of Jack and Dusa. I still feel welcome by them and that does give me that warm fuzzy feeling.

AZ, I do get what you are saying about not knowing whether or not to go in and say something in a thread if you see an active "ism" happening. I really do, because I get the same "icky" feelings when I see certain things also.

While trying not to use Dylan as a specific example, I have seen quite a few folks get "bashed" or as some folks have called it "dog piled" for expressing feelings other than what were of the general tone of those conversations. I think it is really important for me to try to exercise an old cliche' of "principles over personalities" in these situations. Meaning, I ( for example in That conversation in That thread) cannot assume that Dylan was being the spokesperson for every transman or male on this site and cannot base my opinion of the trans experience or lens that transfolk view the world through based upon the statements or actions of ONE person. No more than I can see one person being the spokesperson for lesbians, people of color, differently abled, etc. Does that make sense? I personally have to remember to look at the topic and not at the person(s) posting.

I think what I need to do when I see something icky happening is to assess exactly what it is that is icky about it and perhaps try to address THAT instead of necessarily addressing the person who made the statement. By that, I mean not to engage in the back and forth bantering that has a tendency to end up being name calling and very hurt feelings and usually someone getting banned/ timed out or left feeling ostracized.

Like you , when I see a thread that is "for____ only", I have to figure out if I do have a place in that convo and will engage or not based on that. It is my choice to read it and sit on my feelings or read it and perhaps discuss those feelings with someone if they are really bugging me. I do not feel like I need to monitor those threads for something they "might" say that is anti-"me". That said, I do realize that the sexism/misogyny thread was open to all, as was/is the sexism/misandry thread. I think they are very important conversations to have with everyone because like so many have pointed out, all too often the sexism is often so entrenched in us that it becomes invisible ( unless it isn't there).

I think THIS conversation, that June started is important for everyone to be able to read also, because of the very open nature of responses happening. It really helps me understand the very different and intimate places that transmen are coming from in viewing their particular place in this community. Which to date ( I hate admitting this) has been something I have struggled understanding. I think it is just as important for someone like me who sometimes "gets it" and sometimes doesn't, to be able to ask questions and listen and take part without the fear of being judged or attacked, because frankly, there are quite a few folks like me who need this very type of engagement.

I appreciate your responding in the way you did, by giving examples of your feelings and checking to see if I am indeed hearing you. I hope that I am likewise showing that yes, I do hear you. Your response wasn't snarky or defensive and I really do appreciate that you took the time to read and hear me.

Will return to listening.
Thanks, Jess

[Jet]

I don;t know why it is so hard for people to wrap their minds around transgender. It's very simple: I'm male and in the wrong body. I hate being in the wrong body. That's all. There's really nothing else to get in my book.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Jet

I don;t know why it is so hard for people to wrap their minds around transgender. It's very simple: I'm male and in the wrong body. I hate being in the wrong body. That's all. There's really nothing else to get in my book.

I think it is difficult for some, because they have always been comfortable in the bodies they were born with.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Jet

I don;t know why it is so hard for people to wrap their minds around transgender. It's very simple: I'm male and in the wrong body. I hate being in the wrong body. That's all. There's really nothing else to get in my book.

There are still plenty of people who consider this kind of thinking indicative of mental illness. There is nothing in their experience that can help them relate to, or in anyway understand, the reality of our situation. Never has there been a day in which they hated their anatomy in the way that transgendered/sexed people might.

Most people are incapable of thinking outside their own experience, so I understand and accept that it's hard for them to "wrap their minds around" it. What I don't understand, and won't accept, is their intolerance and continued choice to remain ignorant.

I choose, also, to accept that the burden is on me to help them get past where they are in their thinking. That it is not helpful for me to show them anger, fear or their own hatred in return.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

There are still plenty of people who consider this kind of thinking indicative of mental illness. There is nothing in their experience that can help them relate to, or in anyway understand, the reality of our situation. Never has there been a day in which they hated their anatomy in the way that transgendered/sexed people might.

Most people are incapable of thinking outside their own experience, so I understand and accept that it's hard for them to "wrap their minds around" it. What I don't understand, and won't accept, is their intolerance and continued choice to remain ignorant.

I choose, also, to accept that the burden is on me to help them get past where they are in their thinking. That it is not helpful for me to show them anger, fear or their own hatred in return.

I don't need to help anybody understand anything. The last time I did that I ended up in a fist fight with a bio man. I'm done with others' intolerance and explaining and holding somebody's hand gently trying to "guide" them through reasoning that they'll NEVER get. And for the record, that SOB, my own family member who punched and slapped the hell out of me, can kiss my ass. This is what it has been like as transgendered. No one, and I mean no one, gets close to me.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Jet

I don't need to help anybody understand anything. The last time I did that I ended up in a fist fight with a bio man. I'm done with others' intolerance and explaining and holding somebody's hand gently trying to "guide" them through reasoning that they'll NEVER get. And for the record, that SOB, my own family member who punched and slapped the hell out of me, can kiss my ass. This is what it has been like as transgendered. No one, and I mean no one, gets close to me.

I'm not advocating trying to help by explaining, or hand holding. It's in the way I live my life. It's in the way I comport myself among my co-workers, my clients, my neighbors. I've survived and thrived this way in the most urban and most rural environments, and everything in between.

Being angry, resentful, closed off isn't a viable option for a healthy, balanced, full life for me. I don't try to explain myself to anyone, I feel no need for that. I am first and foremost a human and relate to others solely from that perspective. I know I am a fantastic and beautiful creature, others either see it or don't; I have no expectation of their "getting it," as much as I might wish to live in a world in which they would.

I believe that if you confront the world with anger, it will greet you in turn.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I'm not advocating trying to help by explaining, or hand holding. It's in the way I live my life. It's in the way I comport myself among my co-workers, my clients, my neighbors. I've survived and thrived this way in the most urban and most rural environments, and everything in between.

Being angry, resentful, closed off isn't a viable option for a healthy, balanced, full life for me. I don't try to explain myself to anyone, I feel no need for that. I am first and foremost a human and relate to others solely from that perspective. I know I am a fantastic and beautiful creature, others either see it or don't; I have no expectation of their "getting it," as much as I might wish to live in a world in which they would.

I believe that if you confront the world with anger, it will greet you in turn.

Well....this is you. It's not me. Honestly, I don't even want to be here. I have to because I'm a Catholic.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Jet

I don't need to help anybody understand anything. The last time I did that I ended up in a fist fight with a bio man. I'm done with others' intolerance and explaining and holding somebody's hand gently trying to "guide" them through reasoning that they'll NEVER get. And for the record, that SOB, my own family member who punched and slapped the hell out of me, can kiss my ass. This is what it has been like as transgendered. No one, and I mean no one, gets close to me.

I totally get what you are saying here Parker, and understand your wanting to keep everyone at a distance. I think what happened to you with this family member has more elements besides transphobia. I would say that abuse was involved too. Getting slapped and punched, for any reason, is abuse. And you do have a right to separate yourself from him, and should do that.

As for transphobia, some people just won't get it and never will. They are unwilling and incapable of doing so and there is no point in engaging them further. It serves no purpose. But not everyone is like that, Parker. Some people are misinformed and having conversations with them does enlighten them because they are openminded. Figuring out who is openminded and who isn't is tricky. Figuring out when it is safe and appropriate to confront transphobia and when it isn't is tricky too.

Case in point, it took a while to explain it to my parents before they finally got it. They had to go through their own processing and out-growing of their close-mindedness before they could really get it. But eventually they got it and we have a good relationship now. You just have to figure out if someone is respectful and openminded enough to hear you and take you seriously. Sounds like you have family members who aren't and that is very sad and painful. Being here among us other transfolk and trans-allys can be healthy and healing for you and I hope you stick with us.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I totally get what you are saying here Parker, and understand your wanting to keep everyone at a distance. I think what happened to you with this family member has more elements besides transphobia. I would say that abuse was involved too. Getting slapped and punched, for any reason, is abuse. And you do have a right to separate yourself from him, and should do that.

As for transphobia, some people just won't get it and never will. They are unwilling and incapable of doing so and there is no point in engaging them further. It serves no purpose. But not everyone is like that, Parker. Some people are misinformed and having conversations with them does enlighten them because they are openminded. Figuring out who is openminded and who isn't is tricky. Figuring out when it is safe and appropriate to confront transphobia and when it isn't is tricky too.

Case in point, it took a while to explain it to my parents before they finally got it. They had to go through their own processing and out-growing of their close-mindedness before they could really get it. But eventually they got it and we have a good relationship now. You just have to figure out if someone is respectful and openminded enough to hear you and take you seriously. Sounds like you have family members who aren't and that is very sad and painful. Being here among us other transfolk and trans-allys can be healthy and healing for you and I hope you stick with us.

transphobia, physical and verbal abuse: Doesn't matter. They're both shit. And I've had my share. As such, I won't get close to anyone.
Not femmes, not transguys, not family, no one. Thanks for the kind note AZ.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by June

I don't see transitioning as a betrayal. I will admit to being perplexed by it sometimes. When I came out, I knew about Transwomen, and that made sense to me -- "Who doesn't want to be a woman?" And I understood, as much as I was able to about feeling you didn't fit the body you were in and needing to change the exterior to match the interior. When I first became aware of Transmen, initially, that was harder because "I" didn't feel male at all. See, and this is how "I" and I suspect others feel because "We" don't feel male. But it is not about "Us", it is about "You". When I was finally able to ascribe the same internal logic I used for Transwomen, I was able to move forward a bit. One of the things I know is Transphobic behavior for me, is the worry and judgement I feel when I see so many people doing it. I worry that they haven't gotten the counseling or medical attention needed or that they may not be aware of the long term effects of Testosterone on their bodies. I know that it is not for me, June to worry about, my responsibility is to open my mind and heart to people, regardless of how they identify and let them worry about themselves and hope they have a good support system.

June, can I ask something: do you think your transphobia is based more in misandry than transphobia itself? It seems that you are ok with the path that MTFs take but uncomfortable with that of FTMs and it makes me wonder if it's a bit more of misandry than transphobia at work here.

I think it's hard to describe to someone what it's like to be transsexual. It would be like you describing to me what it's like to be whole with one's gender. It's a foreign concept, I believe, for many of us.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

There are still plenty of people who consider this kind of thinking indicative of mental illness. There is nothing in their experience that can help them relate to, or in anyway understand, the reality of our situation. Never has there been a day in which they hated their anatomy in the way that transgendered/sexed people might.

Most people are incapable of thinking outside their own experience, so I understand and accept that it's hard for them to "wrap their minds around" it. What I don't understand, and won't accept, is their intolerance and continued choice to remain ignorant.

I choose, also, to accept that the burden is on me to help them get past where they are in their thinking. That it is not helpful for me to show them anger, fear or their own hatred in return.

Mister Bent, agreed. I think the biggest issue with those that think this is a mental illness is that they use it against us, denying us medical attention, help, rights, etc. I also agree on the concept of the burden to help someone address it is by showing understanding, compassion for others. The idea of "treat others as you want to be treated", even if they cannot do it. By responding to someone in anger, it does nothing, IMO, other than get them more angry and less likely to listen.


To those just reading: this thread is for trans individuals who need support but also for non-trans individuals who want to understand and learn. Many of us are willing to answer whatever questions are asked for those that want to understand or be educated.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by June

Thank you, Linus. I know you started this back in November, but this is scary because I know I am going to fuck up at some point and hurt someones feelings, and that's not my intent at all. I'm not making excuses in advance, I am just acknowleging that it might happen, and I'm worried.

As long as you recognize it when it happens and then listen afterwards, that's all that matters.