Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Oh, I see what your saying. I just feel that the US has always been so Christian focused, it has influenced how we treat, interact and make policy about non-Christian nations which has caused so much alienation. The only country I can think of in which this different is Israel.

I also feel that the US lacks the capcity to understand governments in which religion is central to policy and their societal structures and values. I may not agree with them, either, especially in terms of the role and treatment of women in particular, but, I think our Christian focus (blindness?) keeps us from contributing to the kinds of things that can bring glocal piece. Although, this just isn't a simple situation. Looking at oil for example, certainly brings up a lot of things and most certainly was in play during Dub'ya's terms! Cheny as VP made that very clear.

I don't know that we've always had this Christian focus. If you read the Treaty of Tripoli, the US government under Jefferson bent over backward to show that the United States wasn't a Christian nation (it actually says that in the treaty) and has no quarrel with the "Musselmen" (the 19th century term for Muslims). It's only been since the Cold War that the US got so obsessed that we started moving in directions that can only be described as theocratic.

For very good reasons--and reasons I am actually enthusiastically in support of--Westerners (this isn't an American problem) have a bit of trouble understanding states run by religions because Western Christendom made a pretty clear break between church and state after the European Enlightenment. That simply has not happened in the Middle East and in parts of Southeast Asia so we're certainly going to have problems understanding why, for instance, Iran works the way it does. In fact, of the Western nations America is probably *best* positioned to understand it because we are currently actively flirting with the idea of religious-rule or at least sectarian rule with a veneer of secularism just to keep up appearances for the neighbors. It is only in the United States that, for instance, a candidate who--as far as we can tell from her public pronouncements--really believes that there are demons and that prayer can combat them and have that person be viable as a political figure. Sarah Palin wouldn't last and certainly wouldn't be a power-broker in, say, Sweden but she is viable in the 2012 GOP primary. It seems to me that France, England, Germany *all* would have a much more difficult time understanding the role that the belief "God says our nation should do X" or "God says our society should be ordered thusly" has in public policy than the United States. Those nations are pretty thoroughly secular while the United States has a non-trivial population that *genuinely* believe that Jesus is returning soon, that people will be raptured up when he does show up, and that the state of Israel must exist so that the Jews therein can be 'perfected' or, failing that, wiped out to hasten the battle of Armageddon. We have people in the last administration who believe that so fervently, in fact, that they designed foreign policy around that belief!

The American problem with understanding, for instance, Iran has much more to do with religious differences than in not understanding how the nominally secular government of Iran could be beholden to the religious authorities. We're most of the way there already and there are any number of public policies whose proponents can *only* justify them in terms of religion (prayer in schools, anti-Darwinism in schools, anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-birth control and non-fact-based sex education being the main examples).

I'm curious, what do you think a less Christian focused view would do for the cause of world peace?

Cheers
Aj

[betenoire]

On topic. Anybody who opposes the building of this community centre has some -serious- self-examination to do.

Off topic. I -really- hate the term "melting pot". Just sayin'.

(Okay, not "just sayin'" It implies a melting away of different cultures. It implies assimilation. It implies becoming "more American". It's poopy.)

More off topic. I so dig that the Holy Trilogy got dragged into this discussion. Some of you people are such giant nerds it makes me want to lick your eyeballs.

Further off topic. Obama was right - Five Guys has the best fucking burgers in the universe. Omg.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Off topic. I -really- hate the term "melting pot". Just sayin'.

(Okay, not "just sayin'" It implies a melting away of different cultures. It implies assimilation. It implies becoming "more American". It's poopy.)

I concur....and prefer to think of us as a nice salad...lots of different flavors, all tossed together. Much better as far as I'm concerned.

[betenoire]

We need a "well-meaning phrases/words that rub us the wrong way" thread

Originally Posted by JustJo

promote "tolerance" (I hate that word)

Exactly. Doesn't "tolerance" basically mean "I put up with but don't understand, embrace, or even actually like _____" ?

Originally Posted by JustJo

I concur....and prefer to think of us as a nice salad...lots of different flavors, all tossed together. Much better as far as I'm concerned.

I like Mosaic. It's pretty and you don't have to eat it.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by betenoire

On topic. Anybody who opposes the building of this community centre has some -serious- self-examination to do.

Off topic. I -really- hate the term "melting pot". Just sayin'.

(Okay, not "just sayin'" It implies a melting away of different cultures. It implies assimilation. It implies becoming "more American". It's poopy.)

More off topic. I so dig that the Holy Trilogy got dragged into this discussion. Some of you people are such giant nerds it makes me want to lick your eyeballs.

Further off topic. Obama was right - Five Guys has the best fucking burgers in the universe. Omg.

Melting pot via its traditional definition is poopy. For me, it has always meant something different, even opposing because I see the lead pot to be the impermeable holder of customs and traditions of various cultures. Just how my first generation mind works.

I want a burger....

[Toughy]

I want a green chile cheeseburger (the best in the world) from a local dive burger joint known as Dave's in Santa Fe NM.........if it's still open.......if not then I want the green chile cheeseburger from The Tecolate Bar in San Antonio NM (it's south of Albuquerque and birth home to Conrad Hilton and has a population of about 200 on a good day)......I so miss NM green chiles and the smell of them roasting.......

wait this is not a burger thread..........sorry........

[afixer]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Further off topic. Obama was right - Five Guys has the best fucking burgers in the universe. Omg.

this is the truth.


this is worth repeating.

After the number of Americans killed by it,
I cannot abide by such a disrespectful act of building a McDonald's so close to the WTC!

[turasultana]

There's a 5 guys burgers in park slope brooklyn... I think I need to go again soon.

[lipstixgal]

Golly is there a five guys in NJ?? lol

[Apocalipstic]

If we are against building that Mosque, we should be against building any churches on what was formerly Sacred Ground for those Native People who came before the United States...Wal-marts too!

I think it is idiotic that this is even a subject, we allegedly have freedom of religion and division of church and state???

AND

The building is not on the Ground Zero site!!! how far away is OK? 5 blocks? 10?

Now people all over the country are freaking out about ANY Mosques being built.

[SnackTime]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

If we are against building that Mosque, we should be against building any churches on what was formerly Sacred Ground for those Native People who came before the United States...Wal-marts too!

I think it is idiotic that this is even a subject, we allegedly have freedom of religion and division of church and state???

AND

The building is not on the Ground Zero site!!! how far away is OK? 5 blocks? 10?

Now people all over the country are freaking out about ANY Mosques being built.

Just like people freaking out in Rutherford County, because they want to build a Mosque in Murfreesboro!

I have no issue with building the new learning center. Just like you said, this center is not going to at Ground Zero

[JustJo]

Just to go back to the original question....

I am in favor of allowing this community center and mosque to be built. While I understand that the thought hurts many people, I believe that the only way to heal those wounds is through understanding and making connections.

As many here have pointed out "Muslims" didn't attack the WTC. Terrorists did. Big difference.

Allowing the community center to be built will give people a chance to get to know each other as individuals and as families...not as misunderstood concepts, political tools, or media scare tactics.

I attended a small grad school program with a Muslim man for two years, and was able to have many conversations about what that faith really teaches, to see him with his children and his wife, to hear how he interacted with fellow students, and to debate and converse on many occasions. Knowing him and his family did more to enhance my understanding and promote "tolerance" (I hate that word) than any media report, book, sermon, political speech...whatever.

People have to have the opportunity to get to know each other in order to understand, to accept and maybe even to embrace. This is a good first step.