Lesbian Cougar Video--funny or not?

[EnderD_503]

June, thank you for you response. I really appreciate it. I hope you don't mind if I respond in turn.

I want to make clear that I am not attempting to tell anyone how to think, but, instead, attempting to prompt people to think beyond their initial emotional reaction. I do not think this is a great work of satire, but I also realise that the author is likely not actually trying to take a swipe at lesbians or degrade women in any way. In fact, it seems the contrary is the point. That is what I'm trying to get through, and which I feel is contuously ignored. If people truly understand what satire is and how this video may very well be attempting to achieve it, then why not acknowledge that instead of calling the creator out on all sorts of things that don't appear to be true?

I also want to make clear that I am not telling anyone to lighten up (in fact, the point of the satire may very well be for society to get serious). In your final paragraph you seem to imply, and correct me if I'm wrong, that this video was funny to me and that I thought it was a good example of satire. This is incorrect, and, in fact, I stated earlier that I did not believe the video to be particularly funny. Additionally, the purpose of a satire that deals with such dark subject matter is not necessary to be "funny-ha-ha," but to point out that darkness by overexaggerating it, and yes, sometimes making light of the horrific. Believe it or not, such works and the contrast they present have been pivotal in changing social perspectives.

I am not telling people not to be angry, but to try and think past that initial anger. I have been insulted countless times in my life by a variety of things until I began to ask myself why I felt anger and insult, and what that anger actually achieves. Is it helping me attain my end to be insulted? I have found it effective to actually analyse the situation instead of lashing out in anger. I think such an approach is a good route to take if we wish to change society and it's perspectives on sex/gender. The more one continues on the path to logical debate and thought, the more irrational hatred and discrimination crumble. I don't believe we defeat such discrimination or humiliation by participating in it ourselves. I think this approach could be really beneficial to this community, and I'm sorry if that seems like an attack. I truly believe that it is a good idea to look inward as well as outward, and not only for things that we typically look for or recognise.

If for some reason the moderators don't feel my continued participation in this thread is desireable, I would be more than happy to make my own thread that addresses the issue. If my words are not desireable on this forum, then, well, I guess I'll just have to stick to my own writing. But I thoroughly believe that without self-criticism we threaten to become exactly that which we despise.

My thanks again, June. My additional thanks to all those who have participated in this discussion with me.

- Ender

Originally Posted by June

Ender - I disagree with you on this, and while we don't know each other, I do want to preface this by saying that I often really enjoy your posts and your way of engaging and talking about things. However, I think it's important to think about why this may not affect you, personally in the same way as some of us.

If Female and/or Lesbian do not resonate with you in the same way, you may not relate to things visually or even viscerally in the same way that those of us who do very much identify as women and Lesbians do.

"Ones Sex" is already in the equation because the actual video is very sexually charged. There is coersive sexual intent in that video. No one is being emasculated in that video, and frankly, I think it is a womans right, and a Lesbians right to respond in anger if that's what she is feeling to the makers of the video. To do otherwise would seem to be the same thing as "Sitting down and shutting up" And I call bullshit on that. If they have the right to make a mockery of women and Lesbians, then they/we/us have a right also to express our anger, outrage or even ambivalence in any way we choose to do so.

I do not appreciate someone who is not female or woman ID'd coming in here and trying to tell those who are how they should feel. It smacks of telling "us" to lighten the fuck up. And that's not your place. The OP asked how we feel about it, and we are saying it. That doesn't mean you don't get to have an opinion, of course. If you think it's funny, or the best goddamn piece of satire you've seen in a long time, then say that. But on a website such as this, be prepared for pushback.

And I'm not mad, I'm vehement here.

June

[Softhearted]

What if it was not intended as a satire by the authors???

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Softhearted

What if it was not intended as a satire by the authors???

I think it would have appeared far more american style college humour and it would have been fairly obvious. It was definitely satire.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by Softhearted

What if it was not intended as a satire by the authors???

Then someone's ass is gonna get whipped.

[SuperFemme]

second city is all about satire. no question there.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Softhearted

What if it was not intended as a satire by the authors???

Same group that put this piece of crap out a few weeks ago:

[Scota_Parisi]

I love all sorts of satire and comedy - "The Kids in the Hall", Monty Python, Mel Brooks, Clerks II, and mockumentaries etc.

All bets are off when it comes to satire, I get this. But just keep an eye out for the next Chick Tract depicting "Cougar Lesbians on College Campuses".

[Unndunn]

I think it was satire that missed its mark. I wasn't offended.

[lipstixgal]

I think it was stupid

[BullDog]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on what they find funny, what they find to be satire, what offends them, etc. However, it is quite bothersome to me that many people don't appear to focus on the messages something like this sends out about women and lesbians and who the largest audience is (YouTube viewers) who see them.

I do not care what the intent of the video makers was, nor the "art form" they were attempting to work in. What I care about is the constant messages that are sent out about women in general and lesbians more specially in the media.

I feel that people are like, oh well, poor satire that missed the mark. But what about the messages that are being sent out? If something was made about race or trans people I don't think people would be shrugging, oh well, they just didn't quite hit the mark with their satire. It seems over and over again I get the message that it's ok to portray women and lesbians any damn way someone wants to- in ways that are not acceptable about other groups of people. Women just don't seem to matter.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I feel that people are like, oh well, poor satire that missed the mark. But what about the messages that are being sent out? If something was made about race or trans people I don't think people would be shrugging, oh well, they just didn't quite hit the mark with their satire. It seems over and over again I get the message that it's ok to portray women and lesbians any damn way someone wants to- in ways that are not acceptable about other groups of people. Women just don't seem to matter.

then I should be worried about the message that the clip I put up puts women in a poor light and supports violence against women. And I just don't feel that way. you can't have it both ways: if it's satire, then its not supportive of the material it's against it That's the whole POINT of satire. look at the clip I put up. watch it. do you feel it's telling people to do that to women? Or is it funny because it's so obviously not the way to behave.

If it's literal humou: ha ha lookit the funny stupid lesbian/black person/woman/wheelchair user/fatty, then yes by all means it's very damaging with a shitty message.

[BullDog]

I know what satire is.

[citybutch]

Post-modern... post-feminist... post post post... Post stucturalism... lack of boundaries... respect dissolved. Blah blah blah. No rules, no guidance, our elders left in the dust. There will come a time where we understand that to honor each other doesn't mean that we that we need this kind of so called "satire" to understand each other. We can talk and even have humor about our stereotypes (and they do exist) without reinforcing patriarchal sterotypes .... and there I go showing my generational experience...

Mary D called this type of thing degrading and not enlightening... reinforcing stereotypes... and not groundbreaking. Indeed it is NOT groundbreaking.. merely reinforcing what is... weakened women taken by... well ya know...

I am sorry.. Butch is better than this... and I know that. I live it. Butches living outside the patriarchal paradigm... and transmasculine.... trans... stud/aggressive/macha/macho.... dudes...

Political humor gets much smarter than this... and if you want to defend it? I say you exist within a paradigm that is very very old. There truly exists lesbian, butch/femme, trans, femme... etc... humor ... that exists.. that transcends this stereotypical yada yada... blah blah blah.... very old crap...

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I know what satire is.

Bull dog, you asked why people who believe it's crappy written poor satire by untalented idiots don't worry about the message. I'm one of those people. The answer is: because those who believe it's crappy written satire by talentless idiots also believe that satire mocks behaviour your don't want. Thus it doesn't cause concern, badly written crap or not. I can't explain it any simpler than that.

[Gemme]

As for the cougars and kittens thing, if everyone is of age and is consenting, let them have at it. Their kink doesn't have to be my kink for me to respect it.

I didn't care for the original video before and I still don't. Preying on incapacitated people is not my thing.

[BullDog]

Ender it doesn't matter whether the video makers intended to portray women in a negative light or not. Their intent very well may have been satire and they missed the mark.

However, it's the end product that matters- not their intent. They don't appear to know enough about lesbians or sexism or misogyny to effectively pull it off, and the end product is just degrading and insulting.

College frat boys are the ones that mostly rape college girls at parties where there has been lots of alcohol. Inserting an older lesbian for a frat boy doesn't make any sense and I fail to see how this is satire.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Ender it doesn't matter whether the video makers intended to portray women in a negative light or not. Their intent very well may have been satire and they missed the mark.

However, it's the end product that matters- not their intent. They don't appear to know enough about lesbians or sexism or misogyny to effectively pull it off, and the end product is just degrading and insulting.

College frat boys are the ones that mostly rape college girls at parties where there has been lots of alcohol. Inserting an older lesbian for a frat boy doesn't make any sense and I fail to see how this is satire.

I have a question: how can you ascertain whether or not they have enough information about lesbians, sexism or misogyny if the point of the satire was to appear ignorant of all of the above? When feigned ignorance is what makes it satirical?

The creator is not trying to replace the frat boy with the older lesbian because he believes that lesbians actually behave in such a manner, but because that is how many in society view older lesbians. It is attempting to shed light on that stereotype and ridicule it. Again, making light of horrific situations is part of what makes satire effective and powerful. While this might not be the best attempt at it, I don't understand why there is such a huge backlash against it. Even well written satires are misunderstood by many and threaten to have an audience that does not fully understand its purpose.

Anyways, I can see we are going in circles, so I won't continue to the press the point.

On a side note, I don't find my age to be a valid argument against me, and I don't feel that I should be dismissed simply because I happen to be younger. If society were forever doing this, no new ideas would ever be brought into the mainstream. I am not claiming to be some kind of young 20-something genius, just that I can't see any logical justification whatever to dismissing me as ignorant because of my age. If you believe my age somehow does come into play, please explain exactly how. I'd be more than happy to hear your reasoning.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

On a side note, I don't find my age to be a valid argument against me, and I don't feel that I should be dismissed simply because I happen to be younger. If society were forever doing this, no new ideas would ever be brought into the mainstream. I am not claiming to be some kind of young 20-something genius, just that I can't see any logical justification whatever to dismissing me as ignorant because of my age. If you believe my age somehow does come into play, please explain exactly how. I'd be more than happy to hear your reasoning.

I agree. Everyone comes from a different walk in life that brings all kinds of knowledge to the table.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I have a question: how can you ascertain whether or not they have enough information about lesbians, sexism or misogyny if the point of the satire was to appear ignorant of all of the above? When feigned ignorance is what makes it satirical?

The creator is not trying to replace the frat boy with the older lesbian because he believes that lesbians actually behave in such a manner, but because that is how many in society view older lesbians. It is attempting to shed light on that stereotype and ridicule it. Again, making light of horrific situations is part of what makes satire effective and powerful. While this might not be the best attempt at it, I don't understand why there is such a huge backlash against it. Even well written satires are misunderstood by many and threaten to have an audience that does not fully understand its purpose.

Anyways, I can see we are going in circles, so I won't continue to the press the point.

On a side note, I don't find my age to be a valid argument against me, and I don't feel that I should be dismissed simply because I happen to be younger. If society were forever doing this, no new ideas would ever be brought into the mainstream. I am not claiming to be some kind of young 20-something genius, just that I can't see any logical justification whatever to dismissing me as ignorant because of my age. If you believe my age somehow does come into play, please explain exactly how. I'd be more than happy to hear your reasoning.

I don't understand why you are defending a lame piece of satire and ignoring the messages it is sending about women. Go read the comments on YouTube- that's where they distribute their videos. See if their "satiric" message is getting through or whether you see a bunch of misogynist, homophobic comments.

Satire- know your audience, know your subject material. Otherwise you are going to cause way more harm than good so don't even fucking bother, especially if it's going to reinforce violence against women and horrible stereotypes.

How do I know they don't know enough- I am a lesbian. It's obvious. I wouldn't be telling a transman, hey you are not getting the point of this hilarious piece of satire made by non-trans people. They are mocking the transphobes not trans people, really honest.

As to your age, you don't seem to taken into account the lived experiences those of us have had. And yes I find it irritating when someone much younger than me thinks I am not getting their point. I know what satire is, and I know how to read your posts. You think I am not getting your point. I want to know why you don't seem to be putting any effort in trying to understand why people are upset and take into account what they have to say about how women are portrayed and the rape and other experiences they endure rather than trying to point out how we are not getting your point. We know it's supposed to be satire. We don't need your help on that point.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Ender not trying to be mean, just being honest but this feels like you comin in here as a dude and telling the women to shut the fuck and just laugh at the funny.

It's kind of gross feeling.

Just being honest