Sonoma County CA Separates Elderly Gay Couple & Sells All Their Possessions

[Jess]

Highlighted Waldo's comments in red that I wanted to address. My responses are in blue. I suck at this kind of stuff, so sorry if it is confusing.





[QUOTE=Waldo;88850]There is more to the story - of course there is because this is just the beginning.

The complaint is a legal allegation from the plaintiff against a series of defendants. No arguments have been made. No exhibits have been presented.

Perhaps because it hasn't had its day in court. Evidence is usually not presented in the media before it has been presented in court.

After reading the complaint quickly I have a better understanding of, seemingly, why things may have happened the way they did. BUT I don't KNOW why they did, nor will I ever know.

There are allegations of abuse from the defendants against the plaintiff in regard to the decedent. What if they were true? Does that change anything for your opinion of what happened?

I have not seen statements that state this. Could you show me where those allegations were made against the plaintiff?

If the plaintiff was abusing his partner of 20 years and the medical staff acted to protect the decedent from continued abuse and sold off property and belongings to pay for the care required... does that make it ok?

Again.. I have read through all of this a few times over and have yet to find where Mr Greene was accused of abusing the decedant.


Again - I don't know what happened and I have not read every word, I'm just exercising my critical thinking skills in an effort to understand how and why this happened.

My thoughts are that this was an elderly couple.. One 78 and one 88. One fell down , broke a hip as it were and someone ( probably with the paramedics) made a complaint. It is usually as simple as that when it comes down to elderly couples ( homo or hetero-sexual) Unfortunately, it seems any directive to execution of estate was neglected and further set aside by the county administrators. If this happened to our grandparents.. we would be all over this shit. A lot of gay couples have no one other than themselves, particularly at this advanced age. They have no immediate family of advocates.

And regarding the validity of accusations of abuse... If there were documented records of abuse over a 20 year period that no one stepped in on, ( which I doubt) then I would be even more enraged at the system that so clearly failed these men.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by Jess

Perhaps because it hasn't had its day in court. Evidence is usually not presented in the media before it has been presented in court.

JESS - That is exactly my point. No evidence has been brought forth yet. Let's see. Let's look at the evidence instead of assuming we know what happened.

Originally Posted by Jess

There are allegations of abuse from the defendants against the plaintiff in regard to the decedent. What if they were true? Does that change anything for your opinion of what happened?

I have not seen statements that state this. Could you show me where those allegations were made against the plaintiff?

In section 23 of the complaint the following is stated:

"Defendants COUNTY, LIEDHOLM, STAGG-HOURIGAN, BREWSTER and others and each of them, further made representations and false and misleading statements in support of said Petition, including but not limited to accusing Plaintiff GREENE of committing physical abuse and financial abuse of Decedent, being a danger to Decedent"

Originally Posted by Jess

Again.. I have read through all of this a few times over and have yet to find where Mr Greene was accused of abusing the decedant.

Had you read the complaint or only the coverage of the complaint? I think it's kind of odd that none of the media has mentioned that little tidbit and I am positive that none of the agencies involved from the defendant's side are making a big deal out of it. Of course it's kind of a lot to expect of the media to actually dig into a case like this when they can't even get details of world events right.

Originally Posted by Jess

And regarding the validity of accusations of abuse... If there were documented records of abuse over a 20 year period that no one stepped in on, ( which I doubt) then I would be even more enraged at the system that so clearly failed these men.

Lots of cases of domestic abuse go unreported. I can't speak to whether there were or weren't ANY cases of abuse here. I'm reading the complaint and what the plaintiff's lawyer is saying his client was accused of.

And in summary? We can't know. We weren't there. How about we wait for the evidence to be presented before we damn anyone.

[Toughy]

abuse...............

how about homophobic assholes will make up shit when they want to or need to because they are homophobic assholes...and will do anything to see we lead miserable lives until they can hasten our death so we can burn in hell and fuck over anyone who dares love or partner with us after they kill us off...........

Sonoma County (and most of CA and the entire country) is chock FULL of homophobes and I don't doubt for a minute they would fuck over any gay couple they could..........to the point of taking everything from the individual and his/her surviving partner without legal due process and on the deathbed of one of the couple

[Jess]

Thanks Waldo. Me in blue.

Originally Posted by Waldo

JESS - That is exactly my point. No evidence has been brought forth yet. Let's see. Let's look at the evidence instead of assuming we know what happened.



In section 23 of the complaint the following is stated:

"Defendants COUNTY, LIEDHOLM, STAGG-HOURIGAN, BREWSTER and others and each of them, further made representations and false and misleading statements in support of said Petition, including but not limited to accusing Plaintiff GREENE of committing physical abuse and financial abuse of Decedent, being a danger to Decedent"

Doesn't this go to say that the statements were "false and/ or misleading" ? I suppose that when it does go to court, the defendants will be forced to bring evidence of this alleged abuse.



Had you read the complaint or only the coverage of the complaint? I think it's kind of odd that none of the media has mentioned that little tidbit and I am positive that none of the agencies involved from the defendant's side are making a big deal out of it. Of course it's kind of a lot to expect of the media to actually dig into a case like this when they can't even get details of world events right.

I had not read the entire complaint. However in reading the section you pulled above, it doesn't speak to me of anything except slander on the part of the defendants. I doubt any more mainstream media would have jumped on this anymore than they would any other old couple who the county came in and took their home and/or put them in a nursing facility. We only hear of these things in the media when someone ( family or advocate) speaks up to the injustice involved. It's kind of like when we see shows about hoarders and the unhealthy/ unsafe conditions they live in and some agency intervenes.

Not knowing the whole situation is kind of a tricky place to jump to someone's defense. It surprises me that with the amount of attention this has received, the county or any of the defendants have not made some statement. Usually when a govt. body is accused of something like this( especially if they are in the right) a statement is issued.


Lots of cases of domestic abuse go unreported. I can't speak to whether there were or weren't ANY cases of abuse here. I'm reading the complaint and what the plaintiff's lawyer is saying his client was accused of.

And in summary? We can't know. We weren't there. How about we wait for the evidence to be presented before we damn anyone.

I'm cool with not damning anyone until more facts come to light. I am also very cool with sending as many petitions to as many politicians from President to local animal control that we need Marriage Equality. These are things going on to and within our community that brings up the old warrior in me and does encourage me to take action whenever I can. My personal responsibility starts in having clear legal documentation to protect my WIFE and stepson in the case of my death or long term care. My global responsibility comes in telling the elected officials in my county/ state/ country that this shit is getting real old and is totally unacceptable.

I imagine a great many conversations are happening about this case. If the allegations prove false and the plaintiffs truly did overstep the human rights of this couple, I am sure the more mainstream media will cover that story, because it will be more visible as the outrage of gay folks swells.

[Waldo]

Jess - of course it says the allegations against the Plaintiff are false. This complaint was filed on behalf of the Plaintiff GREENE. GREENE is suing the defendants. The defendants alleged that GREENE abused SCULL. It wouldn't be in his best interest to say anything other than "THAT'S FALSE".

The media, whether mainstream or not, has jumped on this to some extent. But they only do a cursory glance at the details mentioned by the parties bringing it to their attention. In this case? That appears to be the Plaintiff's representation.

Originally Posted by Jess

Thanks Waldo. Me in blue.

I'm cool with not damning anyone until more facts come to light. I am also very cool with sending as many petitions to as many politicians from President to local animal control that we need Marriage Equality. These are things going on to and within our community that brings up the old warrior in me and does encourage me to take action whenever I can. My personal responsibility starts in having clear legal documentation to protect my WIFE and stepson in the case of my death or long term care. My global responsibility comes in telling the elected officials in my county/ state/ country that this shit is getting real old and is totally unacceptable.

I imagine a great many conversations are happening about this case. If the allegations prove false and the plaintiffs truly did overstep the human rights of this couple, I am sure the more mainstream media will cover that story, because it will be more visible as the outrage of gay folks swells.

[Jet]

Motherfuckers. And this is 2010?

Thanks for the post.

[SuperFemme]

Settlement reached in case of gay couple kept apart during man’s last days

By Zachary Green
July 23rd, 2010

A California man whose claims of elder abuse and discrimination have galvanized gay rights advocates across the country agreed to settle his lawsuit against Sonoma County Thursday.

In April 2008 Clay Greene, 77, was separated from Harold Scull, 88, his partner of more than 20 years, after county officials deemed that injuries Scull suffered were the result of domestic violence. The county district attorney later discredited that claim, but county employees kept the two men in separate facilities. Scull died three months later. The county then auctioned off all of the couple’s belongings to pay for Scull’s hospital fees.
Greene sued the county for an undisclosed amount with the assistance of the National Center for Lesbian Rights in San Francisco.
As part of the settlement reached Thursday, Sonoma County agreed to pay $300,000 for Greene’s legal fees, $275,000 to Greene himself, and $25,000 to the estate of Harold Scull for any property that may have been auctioned off under value.

The county also said that, as a result of the circumstances surrounding the case, it had altered some of its policies for property disposition and case management in such cases. Specifically,it will now appraise all of a conservatee’s assets before selling or auctioning them off. Scull and Greene’s assets were auctioned off without being appraised.

“These kind of civil violations need to be carefully watched,” Greene’s lawyer, Anne Dennis, said Friday. “Hopefully, the changes made will have positive effects on all seniors in the county, not just gay or lesbian seniors.”

The settlement came a few days before the trial was set to begin, on Tuesday, July 27. The county said the settlement was an effort to avoid the legal fees of a trial, which might have exceeded $1 million. In return, Greene’s legal team dropped all charges of discrimination against Sonoma County.

“From the beginning … we’ve been trying to figure out – ‘How can we resolve this?’ But the other side wasn’t realistic,” said Greg Spaulding, a lawyer for Sonoma County. He said the county was pleased with the resolution and noted that the settlement in no way validated the claim that the case workers discriminated against the men’s sexual orientation.
Greene is also happy with the result, according to Dennis. He now lives in the same residential facility where his partner spent his last days.
“He feels good, he’s put on a little weight … He’s going to have a nice life,” Dennis said.

Dennis maintains that the details in the complaint — specifically the county workers’ discrimination against Greene — are true. But rather than put Greene through a lengthy trial and a possibly lengthier appeals process, she said she preferred to make sure that he received, “a nice quiet retirement.”

“[Clay] is almost 80 years old,” she said. “I want him to be able to enjoy his life.”

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/culture/settlement-reached-in-case-of-gay-couple-kept-apart-during-mans-last-days/2464/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=fanpage&utm_campai gn=pbs

[Miss Scarlett]

Thanks for that post SuperFemme. I still think the individuals who are responsible for this heinous act should lose all of their possessions in the same manner. You know, auction off their stuff to raise all or part of the settlement money.

Here's the article that is running in our local LGBT paper here - hey it takes a while for news to trickle over here to the East Coast...

GAY ELDER GETS $650K FOR FORCED SEPARATION FROM PARTNER
SAN FRANCISCO, Calif. — Clay Greene and the estate of Harold Scull, Greene’s deceased partner of 20 years, reached a $650,000 settlement July 22 resolving their lawsuit against the County of Sonoma and other defendants for the damages the couple suffered due to municipal employees’ discriminatory and unlawful conduct.

Greene and Scull lived together for 20 years and had executed both mutual powers of attorney for medical and financial decisions and wills naming each other as beneficiaries. In April 2008, County employees in the Public Guardians Office separated the couple after Scull fell outside their shared home. In the next three months, County officials ignored the couple’s legal documentation, unlawfully auctioned their possessions, terminated their lease and forced Greene into an assisted living facility against his will.

The County did not consult Greene in Scull’s medical care and prevented the two from seeing one another. In August 2008, before the partners could be reunited, Scull passed away after completing a photo album of the couple’s life for Greene.

In August 2009, Greene and the representative of Scull’s estate, the couple’s longtime friend Jannette Biggerstaff, filed a lawsuit alleging elder abuse, elder financial abuse, breach of fiduciary duty, intentional and negligent infliction of emotional distress, false imprisonment and other claims.

Biggerstaff stated, “There is no possible justification for what happened to my friends Harold and Clay, and I still feel outraged and heartbroken that they suffered such a terrible tragedy, which was made worse by the County spreading such terrible lies about Clay. But I am pleased that their rights have been vindicated, and I’m hopeful that their story will help to prevent this from happening to other vulnerable people.”

“What Clay and Harold lost can never be replaced, but this settlement brings a measure of justice to their story,” said Amy Todd-Gher, Senior Staff Attorney for the National Center for Lesbian Rights and one of Greene’s representatives. “This victory sends an unmistakable message that all elders must be treated with respect and dignity, regardless of their sexual orientation, and that those who mistreat elders must be held accountable.”

In addition to agreeing to pay to settle the lawsuit, the County has changed or modified a number of important policies in its Public Guardian’s Office, including requiring County employees to follow protocols before seizing private property, preventing County employees from relocating elders or others against their will and prohibiting County employees from backdating information in their guardianship database. (Emphasis mine -Very interesting...)

“This settlement will allow Mr. Greene to finally have the quiet retirement he deserves,” said Anne N. Dennis, another of Greene’s attorneys. “Although nothing can undo the harm to these gentlemen, we believe the changes made because of the lawsuit will improve services to elders and other individuals who need the assistance of the Sonoma County Public Guardian’s Office.”

http://goqnotes.com/7795/gay-elder-g...-from-partner/

[MysticOceansFL]

It just goes to show we need to keep staying together for our rights and don't veer off from what our set goals are yes things like this will happen but I am sure abama is on the right path for us all. Everything takes time and its a slow process but in these times of crisis we need to pull together and stay focused it will happen one day for us it might not be as soon as we'd like it to be but it will!!!

[SuperFemme]

it IS rather amazing that making employee's follow proper protocol is a newly implemented thing.

seriously?

[Nat]

"In August 2008, before the partners could be reunited, Scull passed away after completing a photo album of the couple’s life for Greene."

This sentence is so sad.