Gender Fluidity

[Jett]

Oh and I forgot I wanted to mention gender as a social construct. Does that make it just our imagination? I don't think so... we live in a highly gender oriented world and the majority of things around us are "gendered" by society... from clothes to behaviors to colors right down to movements. That is a concrete reality we live in from birth to death and we develop or have strong internal feelings based on that... gender fluid or not everyone does.

[waxnrope]

Thanks for starting this conversation, Metro.

I have something to offer, to add, to disclose, perhaps, but will wait till I can use a real keyboard and concentrate on my thoughts, instead of one finger on the phone.

I will say that, in poking fun at my own id (and NOT the id of the made fun of other ...), I refer to myself as a faggy butch. A term originally given me by a gay man who was an interior designer.

[Soft*Silver]

gender fluidity is not the same as orientation fluidity. I am fluid in my orientation but thats a different thread. I just wanted to point it out tho.

Metro, I actually met someone that was fluid in their gender. It became part of her process to transition from male to female but for a portion of her journey, she was betwixt and between, neither/both. A movement of hers, a tone of her voice, even a dip of her face transformed an entirely different "clue". I say "clue" because people tried to figure her out. She was content in this state for a time but grew restless as the world around her changed and allow her further growth and evolution.

I use "her" because that is where she decided to go. She is who she is now...but at that time, she was distinctly "fluid" and at that moment, it wasnt just a passing thru. It was exactly who she was. She was not a flap that flip flopped. Oh no no no. God I remember looking into her eyes and feeling a "suck in" of my god core. In getting to know her, I realized what a spiritual being she was. (talking to her, you would know how spiritual she was) She wasnt a mix of genders. She was gendered, yet a fuller expression of what gender is, without having to claim one form or another. (I revisit my memory of her every now and then. She is one of my most favorite beings I have encountered this time on this earth.)

I immediately gravitated to her and she gravitated to me when we first met. We understood each other before we said a word. I was "with" someone at the time and felt very uncomfortable with the connection I had with her. I was also uncomfortable because she was obviously femme. I could not believe I was drawn to a feminine spirit, male/female. But had I not been with someone, I would have followed through with this connection. But because I was, I did not put myself in places where I would be near her. We kept a communication, tho distant. I no longer communicate with her. Life, you know...

I so love the fluidity of gender. I love the depth and magnitude it can be expressed within and beyond its social and genetic and spiritual "containers", which to me is the body,mind and soul, the sacred trilogy of human existance. She was the best expression I have met about this fluidity...

[Jett]

Originally Posted by softness

gender fluidity is not the same as orientation fluidity. I am fluid in my orientation but thats a different thread. I just wanted to point it out tho.

Metro, I actually met someone that was fluid in their gender. It became part of her process to transition from male to female but for a portion of her journey, she was betwixt and between, neither/both. A movement of hers, a tone of her voice, even a dip of her face transformed an entirely different "clue". I say "clue" because people tried to figure her out. She was content in this state for a time but grew restless as the world around her changed and allow her further growth and evolution.

I use "her" because that is where she decided to go. She is who she is now...but at that time, she was distinctly "fluid" and at that moment, it wasnt just a passing thru. It was exactly who she was. She was not a flap that flip flopped. Oh no no no. God I remember looking into her eyes and feeling a "suck in" of my god core. In getting to know her, I realized what a spiritual being she was. (talking to her, you would know how spiritual she was) She wasnt a mix of genders. She was gendered, yet a fuller expression of what gender is, without having to claim one form or another. (I revisit my memory of her every now and then. She is one of my most favorite beings I have encountered this time on this earth.)

I immediately gravitated to her and she gravitated to me when we first met. We understood each other before we said a word. I was "with" someone at the time and felt very uncomfortable with the connection I had with her. I was also uncomfortable because she was obviously femme. I could not believe I was drawn to a feminine spirit, male/female. But had I not been with someone, I would have followed through with this connection. But because I was, I did not put myself in places where I would be near her. We kept a communication, tho distant. I no longer communicate with her. Life, you know...

I so love the fluidity of gender. I love the depth and magnitude it can be expressed within and beyond its social and genetic and spiritual "containers", which to me is the body,mind and soul, the sacred trilogy of human existance. She was the best expression I have met about this fluidity...

Heh, this just kind reminded me of a fall evening in a small bar on the shores of Superior some years back.

A young blonde women sitting at the bar eventually got up and moved to the stool beside me. I don't remember how she started the convo but she spent the next couple hours with this smiley perplexed goofy expression on her face while she question me about my sex/gender etc. "You're a guy", a moment passes "no, nope... you're definitely female"...then "oh MY gawddd I can't figure you out" (and right, I wasn't feeling like giving her answers).

At first it was a little itchy, but I wasn't offended. She was clearly happily fascinated and enjoyed my gender "presence" very much, though quite forward it was a positive reaction. Besides I was a little bored prior and found her quite nice and fairly entertaining so what's to be all aghast about.

Funny now looking back at the fact that she couldn't figure me was the irony that she sort of did.

Ok, I think I need some more coffee... slept late and I'm not quite awake yet...

Metro

[Soft*Silver]

I give that young lady some gold stars for being so open and comfortable with exploring her own questions about your gender.

I have dated some butches who by appearance, are mistaken for male. I say mistaken because they IDd female, even if they were uncomfortable being female. I wouldnt consider them fluid...at all.

Which brings me to another point...I want to point out, in my opinion, that fluidity isnt about someone who wants to be what gender they arent, or someone who is unhappy with their gender. Fluidity is really like a river running past. You stand in the river and you are always you but the flow of the water, even tho it is always water, is never the same. But is always the same. Thats how I see fluidity....

I am glad you had that experience with the young blonde..you made me smile as I visualized it...

[Jett]

Softness your description does it justice, and I agree. I've often likened it to an ebb and flow of tides of energies, but I like the way you put it.

[imperfect_cupcake]

hey Met

My partner identifies as gender fluid or has having more than one gender. I strongly ID this way as well. The difference is that both of her genders are masculine orientated: butch woman, and... there is no name she can give the other gender, nor classification. Mine ... both are feminine, one is femme - which has no determined sex associated with it and is rather... masculine feminine, and I wish I could articulate it better. and the other is woman.

For me, it's much like two train tracks that run parallel and occasionally share the same track and then cross over and run parallel again. They are definitely distinct.

for my partner, her genders occationally clash with each other, purely from one being associated with her female body (butch woman) and the other doesn't really match.

I also understand this as I also often occupy gender neutral in my head and when that occurs, my body doesn't make much sense and it's a pain in the ass. However, it can be confusing for me as my gender neutral space is a "respite" place and can be a bit dissociative, body wise as it's sexless.

my partners body causes her self-confusion when she inhabits one of her genders, whereas my body just fucks me off for "misbehaving" (not being sexless, smooth, slender and without curves).

Sometimes I think it's just "headspace" and sometimes I feel it's a completely gender valid way to be. I tend not to examine it too much as doing so really just gives me existential angst and I've had too much of that in my life already. I is who I is, my partner gets me, I get her, it's of no importance to my friends or family and I usually have no urge to discuss it with anyone anyway as it's near impossible to articulate in any meaningful way. there doesn't really seem to be any words to describe it properly that doesn't "miss the mark." None in English anyway.

It's sort of like trying to describe my version of "god" (which isn't god as I'm by all functional descriptors an atheist but that isn't completely correct but the wonder of the universe described by all the atheists I know describes exactly what I mean by "god" and most of them get my metaphor if they aren't being dogmatic). Trying to describe it only lessens the understanding because of shitty language.

So, I just "be" in it.

[Nat]

Lovely thread

I've spent a lot of time publicly dissecting my gender experience. For whatever reason I was riddled with shame through most of it. Constantly worrying, wondering if i was okay, valid.

Though I wouldn't necessarily come up with the term fluidity - Met's description comes closer than most to my experience.

I feel like I'm both male and female and both feminine and masculine. I really don't know how others experience me, but I tend to live in the femme. It is what it is, I am what I am.

The person I'm seeing is not butch and not trans. I experience her as fluid, though I'm not sure she'd describe herself that way. Sometimes to me she is this gorgeous and feminine woman and sometimes she's this beautiful tomboy, and these energies seem to flicker in her pretty much all the time. She's complex and transfixing and magnetic.

I wondered for a while if being with her would affect my femme identity over time - if I would draw closer to some imaginary center-line - but so far that hasn't happened. If I were a heart, femme would be the systolic contraction and guy would be the diastolic. Such is life. At least, such is my life.

Identity seems to be a hole I can fall into. It's helpful at times, but at the moment I find it's something that doesn't affirm me much. Being around other people who get femmes and sharing the company of other femmes just makes my heart sing. But in my daily life, I am just so conflicted about identity that I'd just rather not focus on it at all. Though I consider myself a femme, I can only do it on the days where it feels elastic enough to fit me. Being around other femmes makes me feel free again, re-affirms me somehow.