Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[SelfMadeMan]

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

[~Bo]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

Ditto.....

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

Thank you for speaking up and stating what is true for you. I sincerely mean this. I would like to hear more of what you have to say. I am aware that "transitioning" may have similarities for many but there too are many varied experiences and identities.

[Stacy]

This is how I personally break it down...
masculine/feminine = characteristics
male/female = gender
man/woman = sex

So to me the Male ID'd Butch is a combination of the three.
sex (woman) + characteristics (male) = Male ID'd Butch (woman)

In the end, the sex stays the same and the characteristics are usually very male. With an FTM transsexual the sex generally changes to MAN in the end and their characteristics are generally a more equal mix of male & female. It has been my experience with many of the FTM transsexuals I have met that after transition they are more open to explore their feminine characteristics because their gender & sex are in sync, male + man.

I often wonder when I see male ID'd butches on the site if that is how they present themselves to their family, their jobs, and the public in general outside of the forums. A male ID'd butch is still physically and usually legally a woman and therefore has the option of having one foot in both worlds. Whereas my husband, who has undergone SRS and is on hormone therapy can no longer present as a woman anywhere, and that is perfectly okay with him. That is how it is suppose to be, for him.

I am not trying to step on any toes here, I'm just expressing how I try to keep something straight in mind that has a tendency to be very convoluted.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Deviant

This is how I personally break it down...
masculine/feminine = characteristics
male/female = gender
man/woman = sex

see this is where is get irrationally annoyed and confused. it's totally my own issue.

But growing up with biology and anthropology being spoon fed at an early age, it's

masculine/feminine = characteristics
man/woman = (two of many) genders
male/female = (two of *many*) sexes

so when people say "male ID'd butch", I go "huh?? but Male is a sex, not a gender. I don't understand what you are saying. If you said you were transsexual, rather than transgender, I'd get it. It's why there are male horses, not man horses."

So it's a massive stumbling block I can't seem to get past in comprehending. I went away from the web for six-8 months and came back and everyone was using it, where as before, they called themselves TG butches. Which I understood.

It's not really anyone else's problem, granted, it seems to be only me that doesn't understand. I have tried. People have tried explaining. But I keep ramming up against "but... but... that's transgender... not transsexual..."

And it's not my place to tell people who they are. But the word means something entirely different to me and sometimes it rubs me the wrong way

Not in any majour way, mind you. I think it's just something my brain won't switch on. TG butch = what some other people call male ID'd butch. It's a Dictionary problem I can't seem to change. I still see them as who they are, mind you.

I suppose it's like inki and I arguing "that's green" "no it's turquoise"
this can go on for hours. she means pale green with a smidgen of blue in it (thus green) I see turquoise. To her, Turquoise has more blue in it. I'm also suspecting since people see colours differently, that perhaps I see more blue in things than she does.

we are saying practically the same thing but our perceptual semantics get in the way.

[Stacy]

Didn't want to irrationally annoy anyone, as I stated, it is how "I personally break it down".

[SuperFemme]

what if a person is transgender but disputes the term FTM?
because to this person they were never female, always male...
so transitioning away from something they never were to something
they've always been seems to be a sticking point

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

what if a person is transgender but disputes the term FTM?
because to this person they were never female, always male...
so transitioning away from something they never were to something
they've always been seems to be a sticking point

Well while it may not be something they want to admit or face, or own, they WERE born biologically female. Period. I am as manly as the next man, and I can own the fact that while my mind & spirit were ALWAYS male, I was born into a BIOLOGICALLY female body. They can dispute whatever they want to - but if they were born into a body that was biologically female, then one MUST transition to male - unless that person chooses not to transition, then they are choosing to remain biologically female regardless of what pronouns they choose.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Deviant

Didn't want to irrationally annoy anyone, as I stated, it is how "I personally break it down".

it's not personal . more than just you uses male = gender instead of sex. it's like how some people get irrationally annoyed from the misuse of punctuation. Like I said, it's my problem.

ETA: I'm not saying sexual transitioning isn't "real" - as far as I'm concerned it's "real" before it occurs anyway. my only stumbling block is pedantic: male is sex, man is gender. It's why I can have multiple gender (woman, femme, gender neutral) that I inhabit in my female (sex) body.

sexual transitioning, is not gender transitioning in my brain. I know that sounds weird. But someone who sexually transition is a man turning into a male. if that makes sense. Or like some of my friends a _____ (however they classify their gender) gender transitioning to male.

Perhaps my brain works differently.

that said I do know transgender and transsexual individuals. to be more confusing.

I am by NO MEANS speaking for anyone. I am only talking about why the confusion between sex and gender drives me a bit bonkers and I get very confused as to how people use them.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Thank you for speaking up and stating what is true for you. I sincerely mean this. I would like to hear more of what you have to say. I am aware that "transitioning" may have similarities for many but there too are many varied experiences and identities.

Thanks Grey... I'm not trying to bash anyone's identity - I believe so strongly in the freedom to express oneself. I just think that oftentimes, the lines get blurred between Transgender and Transexual, Butch and FTM, etc. and the term FTM, IMHO is often misused. FTM - female TO male, refers to someone who has transitioned (or is transitioning) from being female to being male. I think this gets used too loosely at times to refer to someone who might present as male but is not transitioning, and I think this causes a lot of confusion - and incorrect assumptions by society. I also think the word Butch is used too loosely, and this not only hurts those Transmen who don't identify as such, but the Butch community as well. The Butch experience is vastly different than the FTM experience.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT.

Thank you for this. I am proud to be a butch, proud to be a woman and proud to be a lesbian.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thank you for this. I am proud to be a butch, proud to be a woman and proud to be a lesbian.

Yes!! Thank you for this!

[JustBeingMe]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thank you for this. I am proud to be a butch, proud to be a woman and proud to be a lesbian.

Ditto Bulldog !!

[JustBeingMe]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

Ditto................

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

yes. I know plenty of men of any/all origins or aren't even slightly butch-as-adjective. In fact two of my closest men friends are giant queens. And manly as all get-out. And still very much the male they have always been no matter what their starting point was.

Butch, for many, is a gender - regardless. some people I know that physically transition into their very own gender and sex (not exactly male sex, but something else entirely) still see one of their genders as butch as their sex still encompasses something partially female.

So I can see the crossing of why some still claim the gender.

But I can see/understand the very clear logic of why many do not.


I personally don't tend to see FtM as butch. Unless they tell me they are because of the variety of their sex(transition and head space) (FtQ a term a couple of my friends use and how I separate it in my own head).

again, it's not up to me though. it's where they live. I have no say in that.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Deviant

[B]This is how I personally break it down...
masculine/feminine = characteristics
male/female = gender
man/woman = sex

So to me the Male ID'd Butch is a combination of the three.
sex (woman) + characteristics (male) = Male ID'd Butch (woman)

That may very well be for you, but that is not the case for many male id'd butches. For some maybe, but for others it is not at all the case. What I don't understand is why, on a forum that claims to accept the way everyone chooses to identify, there seems to be so many ready to explain to male id'd butches what they should be. And yet for most other id's, when a poster does this they're jumped on for not accepting the way a person chooses to identify.

I explained in my first post why I retain stone butch as a part of my identity. If you want the run down again, then here it is: I have never identified as a lesbian, a woman or female despite what some people like to tell me. Since early childhood I unquestioningly thought of myself as male. Not just "a boy," or "a man," but of the male sex. The only time in my life I ever even attempted to believe in any god was when I was 7 years old praying that I'd wake up one morning to find that it had all been a dream and that my body would be changed to what I always saw it to be.

Needless to say, that didn't happen. From that early I age I'd also always been attracted to women, which became a problem for me because there was no explanation for me (the word lesbian never worked for me), for what I was, for how I could continue to live my life. Middle school people start coming out as lesbians, bisexual etc. Women attracted to other women, and that brought me even more confusion and delayed my entrance into the queer community for quite a long time because I didn't feel it was the place for me. In many respects I still feel like it continues to put a wedge in between me and the community. I was not a woman attracted to other women. I did not want to be in a relationship where I was recognised as a woman, have an anatomy I detested in myself be recognised.

When I first came across the term stone butch it had been the closest term, at that time, that described who I was as far as what appeared to be sexual boundaries. It told me that I was not the only one who had been born with female genitals who did not want to be touched in a way that I deemed as feminizing (and since I know people have scoffed at that word in stone butch threads in the past, I'll put it more plainly: touched in a way that recognises genitalia I wish I'd never been born with). I know there are many different ways stone butches see their identity, and many won't agree with me on my perspective on my own identity. It gave me a means to understand myself at a time when I'd never met anyone who felt the same way; who was born with female genitalia, who was attracted to women, but who did not consider themselves female, woman etc. but male. I always had a strong aversion to the term FTM or transsexual because to me, even with surgery or hormones, it didn't recognise that I was already male in mind. It would never be a transition for me because my mind is a bigger definer, to me, of who I am than my body. I kept that as a part of my identity as a testament to the first thing that began to make some sense of me as far as my sexual orientation. As far as I applied it to myself, stone butch has never meant lesbian or woman, though I've always understood that some who identified a such did see themselves that way. To me, as far as I applied it to me, that was never how I saw it. To this day I still can't give an answer as to my sexual orientation because I don't have a clear cut answer. My brain tells me I'm a straight male born into something else that does not have a name for me (wanted to edit and clarify this before someone jumps on it...maybe this will make more sense: I feel like I'm straight according to my own perceived sex (male) and who I'm attracted to (women, more specifically femmes), yet also feel a part of the queer community. My attraction is to femmes and I honestly don't know what to call that beyond "I'm attracted to femmes." So my sexual orientation is simply someone of the male persuasion who is attracted to femmes if you want to call it anything...which makes me feel like I should just do away with defining my sexual orientation all together. While I can define my brain's sex and my gender, defining my sexual orientation has never been something that has come easily to me). If that makes me crazy and dillusional go ahead and think that of me. I don't care anymore.

In the end, the sex stays the same and the characteristics are usually very male. With an FTM transsexual the sex generally changes to MAN in the end and their characteristics are generally a more equal mix of male & female. It has been my experience with many of the FTM transsexuals I have met that after transition they are more open to explore their feminine characteristics because their gender & sex are in sync, male + man.

Not all FTMs get bottom surgery. They may get their gender marker on their id changed to M instead of F, get top surgery, go on T, but many haven't gone as far as bottom surgery. The whole point of the surgery is to bring your body in line with your mind...the neurological sex (which means sex is not as clear cut as we once thought, considering there are both biological and neurological components) has always been male. Why is it that people always take the physical body as more indicative of sex when the brain is also an indicator of sex. What happens to someone who does not have the opportunity or resources to go on testosterone, to get surgery? They have to submit to the world's interpretation of their sex just because the world can't crack open their skull and take a look inside? We have to be called women and female and dillusional until we have the money not to?

I often wonder when I see male ID'd butches on the site if that is how they present themselves to their family, their jobs, and the public in general outside of the forums. A male ID'd butch is still physically and usually legally a woman and therefore has the option of having one foot in both worlds. Whereas my husband, who has undergone SRS and is on hormone therapy can no longer present as a woman anywhere, and that is perfectly okay with him. That is how it is suppose to be, for him.

This comment makes it sound like male id'd butches are jumping between male and female worlds out of convenience, that they have a choice. Sure I have a choice. I have the choice to keep my job or to be out on my ass, jobless, homeless, in debt and even further away from surgery than I am now. I can tell my mother ten thousand times that I am male and it doesn't mean she'll accept that. Maybe she will one day. I first told her that when I was 4. At least she doesn't hate me. And many FtMs go through the same thing with their families telling them they aren't male despite the fact that they've gone on T, they've got the surgery, the gender legally changed etc. I don't have the "option" to have my foot in both worlds right now. I can barely use any fucking public washroom. At work I just get "friendly" mockery. That's the hand that's been dealt to me right now and I'm doing everything I can to be able to change that financially. But I need to go through "hell" to get to something better, so maybe part of that "hell" is not being recognised by this community either. I'm 25 years old, still paying off thousands in student loans while hoping to go back to school again and so put myself in debt...again, work my ass off in a full-time job that isn't going so great because of the economy, and trying to generally survive. Top surgery is right at the top of the list of priorities right now next to making enough money to live. I also recently got hired at a job that I won't be able to take time off from until next year, which is also a very physical job so I would have to take time off after top surgery. And because of the hours I work (and soon adding school to that again) I can't even go to therapy or support groups (I love the support group here for that reason. Thank you to all the regular guys there for accepting me into the group. You have no idea how thankful I am). Yeah, I know it's all excuses, same old sob story blah blah blah but honestly it's something that's going to take time and effort for me. I know it'll come eventually. I have to deal with life as it is for me right now. The comment suggests that I like and want to still be able to present as female to some people. That I'm somehow oh so "lucky" to have that "privilege" of being denied who I am by other people every day. Oh joy, oh bliss, don't hold your breath as I thank my lucky stars.

Luckily I have good friends that do recognise me, and luckily I also manage to pass decent enough walking down the street/going about life, though my spirit still sinks when I'm recognised as female by a random stranger, or when I get the 20 questions by random strangers on "what the fuck are you".

The point of this little outburst (not typically inclined to such outbursts or getting riled by much of anything but getting tired of the same old broken record spiel) is to try to clarify some things, and apparently people only hear you when you rant. I'm not asking for pity. I'm not asking for sympathy. I'm not even asking for anyone's help in any of this because I can deal with my own shit and take responsibility for my own shit. I'm not asking for anything except that at least in the queer community people would stop telling me that I'm dillusional, insane, a woman, a female and everything I've never understood myself to be; that it doesn't matter what I say or do I'm always what you think I am. As if I need anymore help in feeling trapped in this life. But I'm starting to think even that's too much to ask, so forget it. I'm not even asking that. If everything you all wrote is what you think, hell you've got that right and I certainly won't take it from you since I do believe everyone should have the right to their own thoughts and beliefs. But I also have the self-given right to reply whether anyone else chooses to give a rat's ass or not...so there you have it. I also have the feeling this will be interpreted as me being oh so terribly offended by other's thoughts. Not so. Like I said, we can all think what we want. Just annoyed at the same old song and dance, but ultimately I know, more and more, that maybe acceptance isn't something I should care enough to look for anymore.

[Stacy]

I believe I stated that it is how I personally break it down and what it means to ME. By being a member of this site it doesn't automatically mean you're willing to just accept whatever, I just choose to not make issues of the things I don't accept. I find far too often when I share my opinion about any damn thing other than fun or fluff, someone inevitably jumps my shit about it. You can claim whatever ID you choose on this site. I'm still curious how many claim those ID's in the real world. Just because I'm on this site, doesn't mean I am just blindly accepting of anything. I didn't even bother reading your whole rant, I know it would just piss me off. However, I wanted it to be clear that I stated right off the bat, that it was how I personally view it. I never claimed to be Harry Benjamin or the all knowing guru of all things trans.

[Rufusboi]

Originally Posted by Deviant

I believe I stated that it is how I personally break it down and what it means to ME. By being a member of this site it doesn't automatically mean you're willing to just accept whatever, I just choose to not make issues of the things I don't accept. I find far too often when I share my opinion about any damn thing other than fun or fluff, someone inevitably jumps my shit about it. You can claim whatever ID you choose on this site. I'm still curious how many claim those ID's in the real world. Just because I'm on this site, doesn't mean I am just blindly accepting of anything. I didn't even bother reading your whole rant, I know it would just piss me off. However, I wanted it to be clear that I stated right off the bat, that it was how I personally view it. I never claimed to be Harry Benjamin or the all knowing guru of all things trans.

Deviant - I think you make good points. There are a lot of terms, IDs, and definitions and different people define them differently. It is confusing. Over the years the names and labels have changed for me. Now that I am taking T I struggle with how to identify myself and what word or words to use that will communicate how I identify. I think that many people find it a struggle to ID who they are internally out in the world because the large majority of people don't know the differences or nuances, they might just see lesbian, gay, bi and know a little about trans.

Many know little about the differences between sex and gender, even. I'm not totally sure what you mean by claim those IDs in the real world because most people in the real world have little to no knowledge of these IDs. What does a male Id'ed butch check on an application form because there is no box with this ID available.

If their paperwork says Female then they have no choice but to check female otherwise HR is going to start asking questions. Personally. I don't correct people when they call me he or she. In any given day I can be called she 5 times and he five times by various people I come in contact with. Neither he or she really fits, neither does gay or lesbian. These are the terms people apply to me to try to fit me into their concepts of gender and sexuality.

I don't correct the wait staff who call me she because its a waste of energy for me. I dont care how they address me. For some, though this is an important issue and they will correct people they come in contact with. So even these types of things vary from person to person. We are butting up against language limitations, traditional ideas of gender and sex, lack of knowledge of most people about gender and sex, rigid systems of paperwork that require an either/or answer and all paperwork must align. I'm only on my third shot of T but all these issues have come up as I work on this "transition"

Rufus

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Rufusboi

Deviant - I think you make good points. There are a lot of terms, IDs, and definitions and different people define them differently. It is confusing. Over the years the names and labels have changed for me. Now that I am taking T I struggle with how to identify myself and what word or words to use that will communicate how I identify. I think that many people find it a struggle to ID who they are internally out in the world because the large majority of people don't know the differences or nuances, they might just see lesbian, gay, bi and know a little about trans.

Many know little about the differences between sex and gender, even. I'm not totally sure what you mean by claim those IDs in the real world because most people in the real world have little to no knowledge of these IDs. What does a male Id'ed butch check on an application form because there is no box with this ID available.

If their paperwork says Female then they have no choice but to check female otherwise HR is going to start asking questions. Personally. I don't correct people when they call me he or she. In any given day I can be called she 5 times and he five times by various people I come in contact with. Neither he or she really fits, neither does gay or lesbian. These are the terms people apply to me to try to fit me into their concepts of gender and sexuality.

I don't correct the wait staff who call me she because its a waste of energy for me. I dont care how they address me. For some, though this is an important issue and they will correct people they come in contact with. So even these types of things vary from person to person. We are butting up against language limitations, traditional ideas of gender and sex, lack of knowledge of most people about gender and sex, rigid systems of paperwork that require an either/or answer and all paperwork must align. I'm only on my third shot of T but all these issues have come up as I work on this "transition"

Rufus

Rufus, what you are explaining covers much of what many of my friends describe. They don't really have a label, I don't see them stretching for one, no one I know actually cares what those labels are. As far as I'm concerned is Nat, jim, Cee, Balla, Leng etc genders and sexes and their pronouns aren't really one that exists. They get to say where their transition stops and starts, since they are neither male or female. Some take T, some other have their chests reduced, some have both. Some do neither. Some stop and start.

I don't think any of them use the word butch that I'm aware of. Most of them just use genderqueer as an umbrella term and fuck the specifics, they aren't really needed - at least, no one I know has been arsed enough to try and tell me what theirs are if they have one and I really don't care about their ID, I'm more interested in how they are, what they been up to, if they are busy next thursday. This is probably why I get confused about the term male ID'd butch.

Usually when one goes to a genderqueer club, it's a rainbow of gender and sexes with no two being exactly alike.

that has nothing to do with paperwork and living in the realities of HR nightmares though where you have to pick male, female or transgender (at least public service has put this box on at the very least).

thanks for the help in figuring out why I get so confused by this board when in person I'm not even slightly confused.

[SelfMadeMan]

Note to Self: Only voice your opinion if it is the popular one. Otherwise, temper tantrums and mud slinging are sure to follow.