Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[imperfect_cupcake]

I guess I have a hard time understanding why someone who is taking T and considers themselves male and prefers male pronouns would still want to hold on to the label of 'butch' since labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing, then why not drop it? Not at all trying to be snarky here, genuinely would love someone to answer that for me.

good question. No one I know in London who uses soley he, uses T and considers themselves soley male (sex, not gender) considers themselves butch.

It only seems to be the people I know who use T and consider themselves a mix of male and female (sex) and entirely their own category (gender) still use that word as messy inaccurate short hand but they aren't married to the ID. Many use Boi.

I'm guessing that's different here....

I personally don't have anything invested (read: policing the term butch. It's not my job and I don't care) in keeping it a female (sex, not gender) only term. it's just I don't know of any people who consider themselves exclusively male (sex, not gender) and still call themselves butch. But I assume I'm about to be educated.

Sorry, for those who do. I'm not expecting you to educate me. it's just pure naive ignorance on my part. Willing and happy to be corrected.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

good question. No one I know in London who uses soley he, uses T and considers themselves soley male (sex, not gender) considers themselves butch.

It only seems to be the people I know who use T and consider themselves a mix of male and female (sex) and entirely their own category (gender) still use that word as short hand.

I'm guessing that's different here....

I personally don't have anything invested (read: policing the term butch. It's not my job and I don't care) in keeping it a female (sex, not gender) only term. it's just I don't know of any people who consider themselves exclusively male (sex, not gender) and still call themselves butch. But I assume I'm about to be educated.

Sorry, for those who do. I'm not expecting you to educate me. it's just pure naive ignorance on my part. Willing and happy to be corrected.

Here it is. Male ID'd Butch....for ME. Not transitioning, male, butch. Butch is male as much as it is female. I am not female I am male. I will retain Butch. I am Transgendered.
I have to ask if anyone has bothered to read any other the Brothers here who are Male ID'd Butches, or if they come to the table with preconceived notions of how others should be? Not necessarily you HB.

[Corkey]

Some gates needed to be tended. IMHO

In answer to Deviant.....your words.

[Thinker]

Moderating

Hold up, please...

Some of the exchanges here are getting entirely too personal, hurtful, and disrespectful.

At this time, I suggest taking a 24-hour posting break if you know you are typing in an angry state. And we all know when we are doing that...

One of the expectations here is that we remain considerate and respectful of all members. That does not mean we all see eye-to-eye or that we even come close to agreeing, but it does mean that we disagree as respectfully as possible. And sometimes it means just agreeing to disagree.

Again, if you feel pretty pissed right now, please take a break from the website.

Thinker (moderating)

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Here it is. Male ID'd Butch....for ME. Not transitioning, male, butch. Butch is male as much as it is female. I am not female I am male. I will retain Butch. I am Transgendered.
I have to ask if anyone has bothered to read any other the Brothers here who are Male ID'd Butches, or if they come to the table with preconceived notions of how others should be? Not necessarily you HB.

oh I'm not asking for justification! Not my bed. lol.

Corkey... I know you are trying and I actually really appreciate your effort but I'm afraid I'm still slightly confused. I respect your tie to the word and your proud use of it, that I can hear in your tone. Basically, you are what used to be called TG Butch in my Old Use Dictionary. Fair enough. That use of butch I understand. So far from what I've read from others TG Butch = Male ID'd Butch. No rug ripped out from under me yet.

I'm feeling archaic and I'm not even 45...

Thanks for helping me out, I know it's not your job.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Here it is. Male ID'd Butch....for ME. Not transitioning, male, butch. Butch is male as much as it is female. I am not female I am male. I will retain Butch. I am Transgendered.
I have to ask if anyone has bothered to read any other the Brothers here who are Male ID'd Butches, or if they come to the table with preconceived notions of how others should be? Not necessarily you HB.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

oh I'm not asking for justification! Not my bed. lol.

Corkey... I know you are trying and I actually really appreciate your effort but I'm afraid I'm still slightly confused. I respect your tie to the word and your proud use of it, that I can hear in your tone. Basically, you are what used to be called TG Butch in my Old Use Dictionary. Fair enough. That use of butch I understand. So far from what I've read from others TG Butch = Male ID'd Butch. No rug ripped out from under me yet.

I'm feeling archaic and I'm not even 45...

Thanks for helping me out, I know it's not your job.

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

Hey, Dapper-

I think this is really important. However, I am not either, but have had conversations with folks that are very clear about these distinctions for themselves. I can't speak to this, really, but, I do have a personal concern about not wanting mis-information to be floating around about these distinctions. This could be (without even meaning it to be) dismissive to our transsexed members. This is just a complex set of variables and does have bio-physiological and medical parameters to understand.

Anyway, glad to see this distinction clarified. Maybe someone with knowledge about this will offer information so that the distinction does not get lost in assumptions. This can get very sensitive.

[Corkey]

For me
Transgender = who I am
Transexual = how I fuck

My sex isn't my gender and my gender isn't my sex.
And I just went and confused a whole lot of folks.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Corkey

For me
Transgender = who I am
Transexual = how I fuck

My sex isn't my gender and my gender isn't my sex.
And I just went and confused a whole lot of folks.

LOL!!!!

ok that helps.

transgender = who you are, totally understand.

transexual = how you fuck. I think I get. you mean in hetero - meaning fucking opposite sex to how you see your own body?

sorry corkey it's getting personal and feel free to tell me to fuck off and mind me own biz!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Hey, Dapper-

I think this is really important. However, I am not either, but have had conversations with folks that are very clear about these distinctions for themselves. I can't speak to this, really, but, I do have a personal concern about not wanting mis-information to be floating around about these distinctions. This could be (without even meaning it to be) dismissive to our transsexed members. This is just a complex set of variables and does have bio-physiological and medical parameters to understand.

Anyway, glad to see this distinction clarified. Maybe someone with knowledge about this will offer information so that the distinction does not get lost in assumptions. This can get very sensitive.

Yes, personally, for me, if I was transsexual (meaning FTM), I would never use the term transgender. It would throw things off.

I have seen the word transgendered used in quite a few ways:

1) an umbrella term for FTMs, genderqueers, crossdressers (of the non-trans persuasion), etc. I am pretty certain this was the first usage of the term

2) For people who tend to see themselves as between sexes - male/female

3) other ways


I'm #2 and think that there are enough of us around to shift things this way! lol

The only problem with the term (which I talked about in another thread on another site), is that it has the word gender in it when really in definition #2 we are talking about a person's sex. So, really we need another term (and no, genderqueer is not the same thing to me...and again, there is that pesky gender word again when really referring to a person's sex!)

Anyway, my initial point was going to be that I think that if I was transsexed that it would bother me if the word transgendered was used when describing me. They are NOT the same thing and I would feel misunderstood/misrepresented, I think.

Just my two cents of rambling for ya...

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

yes and more popular use of that term. And in that, seperating transgender from transsexed. which my brain really thanks you for. that's the one I "come of age" with.

Corkey's use still slightly confuses me as I'm not quite certain of the underlaying premise of his terms, but I don't really need to completely understand. it's sort of close enough and it's not really all that important - Corkey is still completely Corkey, regardless of if I can follow it with my own upbringing of terms or not.

my mind is probably geared to non-specifics better. maybe I'm just a generalist, blurry person. I get along better with really gappingly wide terms.
It's why, ever though I'm fairly gender fluid I can't be arsed with defining it (too muuuuch wooork. lazy.) and just go with generalist "femme" with no qualifiers. I also don't care if I'm called she or sie.

I do actually really appreciate the effort people are taking to help me understand though!! jesus. that's actually pretty damn nice. So thank you, Dapper x

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

Haha, and so we come full circle Every label is different for everyone. There is no widespread or clear cut definition that applies to how everyone applies their own identity.

And so to the question the OP initially asked, we're back to the beginning. What is the difference between a male id'd butch and an FtM? Well, what's the difference between one FtM and another. Not every FtM sees themselves the same way or views the label FtM the same way. We've even had some guys who have "transitioned" here in this very thread who claim they don't see themselves as male despite the fact that they've "transitioned" (sorry for the quotations, I just dislike that word) physically and even changed their gender legally. Same way that not every male id'd butch understands that identity the same way. Some of us identify as 100% male, others feel differently. Or male but not in the same way someone born biologically male might consider themselves male (which is a whole other kettle of fish, since we shouldn't assume that every single biologically born male understands themselves in the same way as though they're all carbon copies of one another.). Some of us plan on transitioning/are transitioning/have transitioned while others have no such plan to do so while still considering themselves male. Some of us like the colour blue, others like yellow. Some of us hate brussel sprouts, others devour them like they're god's gift to humanity.

My point: sure we all have commonalities and dissimilarities. I may have more in common with someone who identifies as FtM than with someone who identifies as male id'd butch (talking about experiences, identity etc. here), or I may have more in common with another male id'd butch than with another FtM. There might not actually be a huge difference or any difference at all beyond terminology depending on the individual. Or the terminology and being male might be all we have in common. Or not. Often in order for discussions to occur there needs to be agreement on a common vocabulary...the problem is that having a common vocabulary with identical meanings doesn't really work when talking about how people understand themselves or identify themselves to others.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Often in order for discussions to occur there needs to be agreement on a common vocabulary...the problem is that having a common vocabulary with identical meanings doesn't really work when talking about how people understand themselves or identify themselves to others.

Yes this is quite difficult when people have their own personal meanings for things. You don't associate stone butch with woman or lesbian, yet I am a stone butch, woman and lesbian. I know many other stone butches who are also women and lesbians.

Dapper says many consider butch to be inherently transgender. I am not at all transgender and I am a butch. I think to call me transgender would be inaccurate and would not help people to understand what transgender means for those who really are. Yet I am most definitely butch.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes this is quite difficult when people have their own personal meanings for things. You don't associate stone butch with woman or lesbian, yet I am a stone butch, woman and lesbian. I know many other stone butches who are also women and lesbians.

Dapper says many consider butch to be inherently transgender. I am not at all transgender and I am a butch. I think to call me transgender would be inaccurate and would not help people to understand what transgender means for those who really are. Yet I am most definitely butch.

And you don't consider yourself male ID'd. And that is fine with me, just another color in the spectrum.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes this is quite difficult when people have their own personal meanings for things. You don't associate stone butch with woman or lesbian, yet I am a stone butch, woman and lesbian. I know many other stone butches who are also women and lesbians.

Dapper says many consider butch to be inherently transgender. I am not at all transgender and I am a butch. I think to call me transgender would be inaccurate and would not help people to understand what transgender means for those who really are. Yet I am most definitely butch.

No, no, no. I said inherently THIRD gendered. Very different! And many do view butches this way, just like there are many who don't.