Gender Fluidity

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Rope

I'm not quite sure why being interested in your gender identity as a butch makes one obsessed. Some of us took AND take a lot of shit for looking male and trying to "trick" straight people. We took a lot of shit for being who we are from the lesbian community back in the day. These things color your world. Being butch isn't something we put on for the day or when we feel like it, it's just there.

The discussion of butch and all it's stuff (tranny butch, femmy butch, queer butch, feminist butch, butch that's female id, butch that's male id, including the fluidity that some butches feel around their gender, ETC) is just the interesting mutations of a shared experienced on some level that we get to talk about.

Rope--

Hey Rope, right and I can't see where anyone's really said anything different... but I took things more like referencing specific experiences like I did.

And just for posterity sake, I took AND take a whole lot of shit for looking male and from parts of the lesbian and feminist and hetero community community as well (including almost 90 stitches on my face from the latter).

I Id'd as butch for over two decades, not for a day or when I felt like it, but right I haven't identified with butch as an ID for a some time even know I'm a masculine queer female... but for a long time it was the available nutshell language I had for myself. Not using that exact word now doesn't mean I don't feel, live, and and have that shared experience things very much as other masculine female bodied queer people. I've personally shared these life stories here for years and probably started more sex/gender conversations here than 98% of the peeps on the forums, including this conversation.

And because I feel a sense of "us and you" in your post (and b/c you didn't quote I'm not sure who it's directed at) I feel the need to say, I didn't separate myself from the B-F community, I would hope the B-F community wouldn't separate me from it because I feel more in sync with a cousin identity (not referencing being gender fluid, that's not so much an ID to/for me) more than butch. Though I suppose that could be a reality I didn't foresee...

And btw there's no animosity in this post, I'm just not quite sure where your coming from with all this, but then again I'm not even though my first cup of coffee...

Metro

[imperfect_cupcake]

I didn't separate myself from the B-F community, I would hope the B-F community wouldn't separate me from it because I feel more in sync with a cousin identity (not referencing being gender fluid, that's not so much an ID to/for me) more than butch. Though I suppose that could be a reality I didn't foresee...

I haven't either. I have many many friends who ID as butch and femme (among other genders) and I myself still ID as femme.

There has been described gender fluidity mentioned with butch and femme since I fist joined the communities in 1998/9

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Ropes misunderstanding of what was said (sorry rope, it appears to be a misunderstanding. I shouldn't assume, but I'm confident you'll let me know!) may be coming from the assersion Atlast made about the difference between North American Queer Gender concepts and UK ones. I think that's a valid assertion of difference.

I also note that North Americans *in comparison* are far more "obssessed" with their teeth. To what seems amsuing an absurd levels by people here. And? So what? It's just a difference. I'm nervous about returning to greater consumerism, focus on a longer work week and less holidays as well.

I don't think it's unfair to point these differences out and to voice my hesitation and nervousness about return to North America when there are some cultural markers I won't feel very comfortable about and will have a hard time re-adjusting back into. it's a valid fear.

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I'm not aware of a division between genderfluid or butch and or femme. Like you Met, I don't personally ID by my gender fluidity. it's just a traight like being blue eyed. Some people are. some people are not.

I'm personally having a gender/sex neutral day today so my tits are *REALLY* getting on my nerves. Some days I really do wish I could bind comfortably to get them the hell out of my own face. This doesn't stop me from being femme (a softwear program that constantly runs in the background at the same time). I know some people will have a problem wrapping their heads around that. it's not important though. Their brain math isn't my problem and I understand that occationally things don't make sense to others in personal core realms- it happens to me too. As long as I'm still accepted for me, that's all that really matters.

But the above isn't something that would occur to me to really talk to people about. It just kinda is, I'm used to it. it's sort of like talking to someone about my bowel movements. In context, it's fine. but it would be wierd to keep putting everything around me in my life in context to my bowel movements.

[Jett]

Ok, thanx yep totally I get that and can see where Rope may have taken Atlast's post slightly differently then (I believe) it was meant.

And for the general record I do believe butch and femme etc. just as likely or not to be gender fluid (I think I mention that in my OP but I'm to lazy to look). I can only speak for me but my not taking "butch" any further in my life really doesn't have a lot, well perhaps a little, but not a great deal to do with my gender fluid-ness (nor feeling anything negative toward the butch femme community, on the contrary I have big family type luvs for many peeps and friends here and in my r/l)

For me it's more in my own intellectual understanding of myself coupled with there being more expansive queer terminology choices out there today than there used to be and I have found synchronicity with other gender identities more closely aligned with who I am and what I feel. In other words I found rather than remaining a bit of an "exception to the rule" every time I turned around in butch, more apropos place and terminology had become apparent where I'm not an exception. (which does not mean I think butch is limited)

And really, I'm not especially fond at this point of outwardly needing to define myself anyway, but the "software program that constantly runs in the background", (thank you HB I love that) the center balance of my fluidity if one must have a nutshell term is just more aligned with Boi and in looser GQ identities than in Butch (Boi having zero to do with maturity, age, or Leather roles to be clear).

Ok, before I ramble too much off topic... I just wanted to be a bit more clear on that, I suppose people can either get it or not but that's just the way it is.

[AtLast]

Fluid: changing readily; shifting; not fixed, stable, or rigid.....

For me, butch has a rich and long history, yet has come to a time in which it appears to have shifted to allow for the changes in gender that were masked for a very long time. I don't feel this degrades butch at all, it opens up new avenues for us to experience. I see this as a way to not remain in a rigid state of being. I feel that for others that are trans, this is a way to extend butch foundations - which is why I don't question anyone that is transitioning and keeps their butch identification.

As Met has brought up, my hope is that the B-F community can also have room for those of us that for various reasons, just don't find butch to really fit our gender fluidity. I have just made some shifts that work better for me. And I certainly don't get riled-up with being called butch. It is a part of me, but doesn't cover the whole of me.

Something else that struck me was HB talking about behavior being defined via one's gender. I don't do certain things because of my B-F identity, I do it because of who I am as a whole based upon my history, experiences and all of the other cultural parameters that have shaped me.

I see the very same kinds of behavioral assumptions made of femmes all the time. Sometimes this just feels like being boxed-up and packaged to me with preconceived notions about how I am (and femmes) are to act.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Fluid: changing readily; shifting; not fixed, stable, or rigid.....

For me, butch has a rich and long history, yet has come to a time in which it appears to have shifted to allow for the changes in gender that were masked for a very long time. I don't feel this degrades butch at all, it opens up new avenues for us to experience. I see this as a way to not remain in a rigid state of being. I feel that for others that are trans, this is a way to extend butch foundations - which is why I don't question anyone that is transitioning and keeps their butch identification.

As Met has brought up, my hope is that the B-F community can also have room for those of us that for various reasons, just don't find butch to really fit our gender fluidity. I have just made some shifts that work better for me. And I certainly don't get riled-up with being called butch. It is a part of me, but doesn't cover the whole of me.

Something else that struck me was HB talking about behavior being defined via one's gender. I don't do certain things because of my B-F identity, I do it because of who I am as a whole based upon my history, experiences and all of the other cultural parameters that have shaped me.

I see the very same kinds of behavioral assumptions made of femmes all the time. Sometimes this just feels like being boxed-up and packaged to me with preconceived notions about how I am (and femmes) are to act.

Hey Atlast, I think... I may have to make a clarification b/c what I highlighted there feels a bit off like it maybe could be misread as to what I'd said earlier.

My choice that butch wasn't the best fit for me was more a personal thing and doesn't rest solely on my gender fluidity as I kind of explained in my last post. I know you're speaking for yourself and what you meant but just want to keep clear on my personal perspective. No offense I hope...

Peace,
Metro

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Hey Atlast, I think... I may have to make a clarification b/c what I highlighted there feels a bit off like it maybe could be misread as to what I'd said earlier.

My choice that butch wasn't the best fit for me was more a personal thing and doesn't rest solely on my gender fluidity as I kind of explained in my last post. I know you're speaking for yourself and what you meant but just want to keep clear on my personal perspective. No offense I hope...

Peace,
Metro

No offense at all taken! I see where you have carved your personal expansive niche. Clarification is always a good thing. Actually, it is the expansiveness that interests me, but, probably in my own manner.

Hummmm... I might need to clarify some things, too- my earlier post(s) were not mean't as negative. I have a deep appreciation of butch history/herstory and feel honored to have found this community. There have been quite a few people (on and off-line) that have enriched my life from here. The social network of B-F folks here is very active and commited to our community. That has been invaluable to me. Due to some physical restraints, I can't participate as much as I used to and like everyone, particular sub-groups become one's comfort zone. LOL, especially when you have less time and umph to participate!

I have just never been someone that fit into anything constraining. Not a good rule follower when I think about it. Never would have made it in the military. Nor would I ever have been good at being something like an accountant with strict protocols to follow. Just not in me. So, for me, trying to fit neatly into one specific identity doesn't work. This comes with its own set of stressors and at times, conflict. I don't have any negative judgements of others being able to do this at all. In fact, differences among us is one of my favorite aspects of the B-F dynamic and community. I know we can have our spats, etc., but, when I look at the diversity around me, I feel joy. At times, I do feel like I may not fit in, but, I think we all go through this at times. It has been hard to be the masculine female I am (butch as it applies to me in many ways). But, I know this is home, too. I also have always felt a bit out of step with every population/community I have ever explored. so, I think this is about me, not this community.

[Kobi]

omg I need to get my eyes checked. I could have sworn the title said "gender futility". Thought what an odd conversation. I must check this out! What a dufus.

Now back to our regularly scheduled conversation......

[Converse]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I have just never been someone that fit into anything constraining. Not a good rule follower when I think about it. Never would have made it in the military. Nor would I ever have been good at being something like an accountant with strict protocols to follow. Just not in me. So, for me, trying to fit neatly into one specific identity doesn't work. This comes with its own set of stressors and at times, conflict. I don't have any negative judgements of others being able to do this at all. In fact, differences among us is one of my favorite aspects of the B-F dynamic and community.

Kinda feels like you are saying to be a Butch is to step into some sort of box with limitations and rules. I’m curious do you see other genders (I subscribe to the third gender theory) just as constricting or is it only Butch that you see as having “protocols’? The inference that Butches are “followers” is something that I am reading from your post- would appreciate if you could expand before I jump to any conclusions. Thank you