Male ID Butch, Femme, FTM, MTF & the Intergendered- Open thread to All Members

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So is it for butches, femmes, femme's who are masculine identified? Who are we against?

Are we talking about gender

The VS makes it feel like one is better than the other I am confused

Help me please understand what the discussion is.

Thanks in advance

OK, I see what you mean. I wasn't using v.s. to do that- it came from the prior thread and you are right, it did cause conflict. I thought that by opening up a discussion for everyone, the v.s. would be discussed in a different light. The thread is an off-shoot of the thread:
Male ID butch vs. FTM?? http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...698#post184698 which is in the Trans Zone. I am trying to to get at the whole problem of the VS and exclusion of all identifications being able to discuss this issue as it was posed in that thread.


There can be a wedge about transgendered people retaining butch or femme as part of their identification and I think that is wrong because many people that transition (no matter the degree) have a long personal history as either that goes beyond identifications. I posted about this (so did others) in the other thread, but things went off in other directions, so the whole premise was lost.

The v.s. is the problem, you are right. But v.s. continues (as is demonstrated by the title of the other thread) to be used. Interesting, that it took an open forum, outside of specific Trans or Butch Zones to get some chatter about this.

My point is that we have to get out of our specifc zones in order to get anywhere positive with gender issues.

But, I see now that i should have changed the title from the original question posed. Thanks, Snow! You have now set things in motion to get at the bottom of the whole subject! This very v.s is at the heart of the issue.

I could have made my op more clear as is often the case of ops here (I have had to ask for clarification about other ops, too). For that, I apologize.

We are NOT against anyone, I hope! You might want to take a look at the thread in the Trans Zone.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

OK, I see what you mean. I wasn't using v.s. to do that- it came from the prior thread and you are right, it did cause conflict. I thought that by opening up a discussion for everyone, the v.s. would be discussed in a different light. The thread is an off-shoot of the thread:
Male ID butch vs. FTM?? http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...698#post184698 which is in the Trans Zone. I am trying to to get at the whole problem of the VS and exclusion of all identifications being able to discuss this issue as it was posed in that thread.


There can be a wedge about transgendered people retaining butch or femme as part of their identification and I think that is wrong because many people that transition (no matter the degree) have a long personal history as either that goes beyond identifications. I posted about this (so did others) in the other thread, but things went off in other directions, so the whole premise was lost.

The v.s. is the problem, you are right. But v.s. continues (as is demonstrated by the title of the other thread) to be used. Interesting, that it took an open forum, outside of specific Trans or Butch Zones to get some chatter about this.

My point is that we have to get out of our specifc zones in order to get anywhere positive with gender issues.

But, I see now that i should have changed the title from the original question posed. Thanks, Snow! You have now set things in motion to get at the bottom of the whole subject! This very v.s is at the heart of the issue.

I could have made my op more clear as is often the case of ops here (I have had to ask for clarification about other ops, too). For that, I apologize.

We are NOT against anyone, I hope! You might want to take a look at the thread in the Trans Zone.

Hi ALH!!

Sorry it took me so long to respond, I have read the other thread in it's entirety, and though the VS thing did make me cringe *I* Snow don't feel like I need to be posting in the Trans Zone, I may want to but feel, that I really can not *get it* since I am not going through those things the thread is about.

I feel I too have gone through a transition I refer to it as an evolution of the femme I am. Though I have not physically altered anything I have tweaked, worked on, and learned through out my years. This has helped me to be the person I am now.

I am a Femme, a Dyke, a Masculine power that is all housed in a body that to you may read woman, girl, feminine. My gender being Femme will throw most OFSB&F's because I do not fit some binary or role that is traditionally B-F. I am gender queer, gender fucked and gender fluid with me refering to my gender As Femme.

I was hoping that perhaps you opening up this thread in a more open zone that this would be a discussion about the more fluid genders who are part of this BF community.

I hope I made sense

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Hi ALH!!

Sorry it took me so long to respond, I have read the other thread in it's entirety, and though the VS thing did make me cringe *I* Snow don't feel like I need to be posting in the Trans Zone, I may want to but feel, that I really can not *get it* since I am not going through those things the thread is about.

I feel I too have gone through a transition I refer to it as an evolution of the femme I am. Though I have not physically altered anything I have tweaked, worked on, and learned through out my years. This has helped me to be the person I am now.

I am a Femme, a Dyke, a Masculine power that is all housed in a body that to you may read woman, girl, feminine. My gender being Femme will throw most OFSB&F's because I do not fit some binary or role that is traditionally B-F. I am gender queer, gender fucked and gender fluid with me refering to my gender As Femme.

I was hoping that perhaps you opening up this thread in a more open zone that this would be a discussion about the more fluid genders who are part of this BF community.

I hope I made sense

WOW!

I wish I had done a better job with my OP because this does get to some of the things I was trying too.

Yes! There are many, many, many of us here that are gender variant, unconventional, blended, fluid, etc. that are not transgendered. That IS NOT any kind of negative slam about those that are. I feel that the site (and other B-F sites) generally view gender theory and variance only in terms butches, masculinity and male, transitional surgeries and/or hormone treatment, etc. without considering just how far gender has expanded and is experienced. I also hope that more is discussed about intergendered/sexed and transwomen eventually.

I use butch for myself and female-identified, but, have found work describing blended genders to be more fitting for myself. I also, at times have felt that just because I use blended female person which is more bi-gendered, yet, female- http://www.iiav.nl/ezines/web/IJT/97...jtc0102.htm#An individually-based gender continuum), I am thrown into the lumping of transmen or transmasculine, or male (talking about on and off-line experiences). It is frustrating because it feels like even more boxes are being built to contain gender variations.

Maybe I am far too naive to continue to belive in Free to Be You and Me...

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

WOW!

I wish I had done a better job with my OP because this does get to some of the things I was trying too.

Yes! There are many, many, many of us here that are gender variant, unconventional, blended, fluid, etc. that are not transgendered. That IS NOT any kind of negative slam about those that are. I feel that the site (and other B-F sites) generally view gender theory and variance only in terms butches, masculinity and male, transitional surgeries and/or hormone treatment, etc. without considering just how far gender has expanded and is experienced. I also hope that more is discussed about intergendered/sexed and transwomen eventually.

I use butch for myself and female-identified, but, have found work describing blended genders to be more fitting for myself. I also, at times have felt that just because I use blended female person which is more bi-gendered, yet, female- http://www.iiav.nl/ezines/web/IJT/97...jtc0102.htm#An individually-based gender continuum), I am thrown into the lumping of transmen or transmasculine, or male (talking about on and off-line experiences). It is frustrating because it feels like even more boxes are being built to contain gender variations.

Maybe I am far too naive to continue to belive in Free to Be You and Me...

i love this post and that song.

NOW I understand what you want to discuss.

I'm a gender fluid mix of a plethora of energies on any given day. It feels constricting to me that all roads lead back to Male/Female when it's the side streets that I live on.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

WOW!

I wish I had done a better job with my OP because this does get to some of the things I was trying too.

Yes! There are many, many, many of us here that are gender variant, unconventional, blended, fluid, etc. that are not transgendered. That IS NOT any kind of negative slam about those that are. I feel that the site (and other B-F sites) generally view gender theory and variance only in terms butches, masculinity and male, transitional surgeries and/or hormone treatment, etc. without considering just how far gender has expanded and is experienced. I also hope that more is discussed about intergendered/sexed and transwomen eventually.

I use butch for myself and female-identified, but, have found work describing blended genders to be more fitting for myself. I also, at times have felt that just because I use blended female person which is more bi-gendered, yet, female- http://www.iiav.nl/ezines/web/IJT/97...jtc0102.htm#An individually-based gender continuum), I am thrown into the lumping of transmen or transmasculine, or male (talking about on and off-line experiences). It is frustrating because it feels like even more boxes are being built to contain gender variations.

Maybe I am far too naive to continue to belive in Free to Be You and Me...

I don't experience any lumping in until I come onto these sites. When I am out in my own personal queer bubble or even in my D/s bubble my peers treat me differently. I am not shunned for not being girly or femme enough and my masculinity and use of male pronouns if I so choose is not questioned.

I feel we all have more than just female and male flowing through us, and we tend not to express this due to being judged, not accepted and hell just trying to fit in with community.

I think to be an inclusive community we have to be open to accepting these variations, odd behaviours and communication styles. Key word being acceptance.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't experience any lumping in until I come onto these sites. When I am out in my own personal queer bubble or even in my D/s bubble my peers treat me differently. I am not shunned for not being girly or femme enough and my masculinity and use of male pronouns if I so choose is not questioned.

I feel we all have more than just female and male flowing through us, and we tend not to express this due to being judged, not accepted and hell just trying to fit in with community.

I think to be an inclusive community we have to be open to accepting these variations, odd behaviours and communication styles. Key word being acceptance.

Yep! it took me awhile to adjust to the on and off-site stuff. I still have trouble with some of it, but, i think it is just one of those things. Also, posting in threads is just not the same as the give and take of real-time conversations when we can adddress things right away.

This whole thing was started due to some folks believing (one way or the other) that butch cannot (or can be) used by trans people, no matter if they choose to augment (ie., hormone therapy, surgery, etc.) aspects of male or female.

Since both butch & femme are used outside of our community (gay and straight people use these terms, too), this struck me as proprietary and, well, Although, my personal history is not claiming butch in younger days, there are many here that have transitioned (in various forms, or claim male or masculine), that continue to identify with butch for themselves and have a long history with this identity. So, I was kind of taken back that other's would take issue with this. I also don't get some of the femme identity boxes.

Mainly, I wanted to try and get into another realm- outside of transitioning in any form altogether and have these identifications be recognized without negative judgement. What I continue to find (here and in real-time, inside and outside of queerdom) is the same old binary wall. Conversations always flow to trans issues or remain tied to male or female, masculine or feminine concepts rooted in traditional thinking. Kind of amazing when I think about all of the really well informed people here that bring so many different ideas to forums.

Of course, I can only speak to my own perceptions and actually, I am not feeling negative. Sometimes, I feel that many that fit into other types of minority groups are silenced by our own narrow binary- butch or trans, etc. And there are times when I have felt that folks (no matter their chosen identification) are challenged to change themselves to fit into this very sub-binary like box.

This isn't an easy subject for me at all. So, I don't know if I am being clear- Then again, one of the things that keeps me plugged into the site/community is the fact that it does offer a place to work through things and get feedback. Even with the blow ups, we usually get somewhere, here.

[Linus]

Sometimes, I feel that many that fit into other types of minority groups are silenced by our own narrow binary- butch or trans, etc. And there are times when I have felt that folks (no matter their chosen identification) are challenged to change themselves to fit into this very sub-binary like box.

I wonder how much of this is because of mainstream society's forced binary on us since we were kids and trying to break from that? We get pummelled daily by the binary and it's hard for even us to see it beyond that because of the binary of butch and femme. It was one thing that I was struck when I went to the Trans Support groups in NYC that they were anything but binary.

Even today I'm asked if I will change my gender on my ID and parts of me really doesn't just to mess with people and see how much they pay attention. Few do interestingly enough. They see my face with a beard and say "Sir", "Mr.", etc. As humans we base our "containers" on what we see and not what is necessarily "is".

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

I wonder how much of this is because of mainstream society's forced binary on us since we were kids and trying to break from that? We get pummelled daily by the binary and it's hard for even us to see it beyond that because of the binary of butch and femme. It was one thing that I was struck when I went to the Trans Support groups in NYC that they were anything but binary.

Even today I'm asked if I will change my gender on my ID and parts of me really doesn't just to mess with people and see how much they pay attention. Few do interestingly enough. They see my face with a beard and say "Sir", "Mr.", etc. As humans we base our "containers" on what we see and not what is necessarily "is".

Oh, yeah! Containment!