Swedish Parents Keep 2-year-old's Gender Secret

[Diva]

Well.
THIS is intriguing.

On the one hand.....what a gift. To the parents.
Will the child be home-schooled? Because I can see a potential dilemma arise when it's time to visit the loo.

I believe that right now, the parents are living in a smug little world where they have control. It will soon change. If not now, if not kindergarten, then surely by puberty.

And there will be another box of issues.......

It will be interesting to follow.....and I wish the child well. The next one, too.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by PearlsNLace

WOW. I know I have grown up in an instant gratification culture- I desperately want to fast forward, and see where this childs story goes.

Thank you for sharing!

Oh my, I HAVE changed... your post made me realize this, Pearls. There was a time when just like you I would have wanted to know right away what would happen. But it isn't so important to me to know right away.... I'm content to let this one take its time and work itself through, and I'm willing to put my curiosity on hold until the story is finally completely told. How interesting!
~~~~~~~~

It's very interesting about Pop, too. My immediate thought was "Intersexed in some fashion" because I seriously don't get the feeling Pop's parents are on a personal crusade to TeachTheWorldAThingOrTwo---but I DO get "protecting our child" vibes really strongly. It will be really interesting to watch this story unfold and see where it goes, see if I'm right or wrong about the parents, see what choices Pop makes in life... oh and that first "expert" the article quoted, who said that children always play with those of their own sex? Somebody PLEASE introduce her to a Butch or three, m'kay?

[suebee]

I was at a take-out restaurant last week and just happened to be sitting at the picnic table next to the playground equipment. A cute little girl came up and started playing and struck up a conversation with me. A few minutes later another child ran up and started playing with her. They looked very much alike but I didn't know if the second child was a girl or a boy. When they introduced themselves it turned out they were twin sisters - identical. One preferred pink and purple, the other always wore black. One loved frilly clothes, the other wore only boy's clothes. And the little pink-clad girl recounted all this to me as a matter-of-a-fact. I met the mother about fifteen minutes later (when the girls and I were OLD pals! ) and her attitude was that her daughters were who they were, and she had no reason to encourage them to be other wise. She was a GREAT Mom!

Just about then my girl - wearing her brown and black "boy's" clothes came back to the table. I introduced the girls to her, and she took the hint. She told them that she too preferred boy's clothes, and in fact she knew twin sisters who were much like them: one wore girl's clothes, and the other boy's clothes. It was great!

By the way, the girls are starting school this year, and will be in different classes, and they're fine with that.

Back to the OP's story: the more I think about it the more I think that the parents have a specific reason for doing this - one related more personally to their child rather than the principle of not pre-defining what gender means to him/her. And let's face it, at some point either neighbourhood kids or kids at school are gonna want to play "show me yours....." and the secret will be out. I think they risk making it a great challenge for others to find out what the great secret is.

Interesting situation though.

[julieisafemme]

Really interesting discussion! Ruthie I appreciate your input. I had not thought of it that way. Kids do interpret things differently than adults.

I answered that I agreed with the parents but I don't think it is my place to judge how they want to raise their child. I don't think they are being abusive or hurting the child.

I don't believe that Pop will grow up without any ideas about gender though.

What do you think Jo?

[Bit]

That's interesting about the twins, Sue. We have friends who have a pair of seven year old girls--one always dressed to the nines even in play clothes, and one always in jeans and a t-shirt; one with her hair always curled or styled, one with straight hair she does nothing with. If they were seventeen instead of seven, I swear one would always be wearing make-up and the other, nevereverever, lol...

The sad thing is that one of them DOES get flack from her folks.... but it isn't the boyish looking one, oh no--it's the young glamour girl!! Surprised me a lot. They backed off some after I stood up for her.

[ruthie14]

The sad thing is that one of them DOES get flack from her folks.... but it isn't the boyish looking one, oh no--it's the young glamour girl!! Surprised me a lot. They backed off some after I stood up for her.


Good for you bit... you would be surprised (or maybe not) I was... how much flack I get from other lesbians. Strange isn't it. I love my nail polish and my sundresses and I get told I can't tell you how many times, that I should just "give up that butch femme thing if I ever want to find a woman". REALLY??

Sorry to get off topic... struck a chord... I digress

[Bit]

Well actually, Ruthie, I was a very girly person early on, and ran smack into what I call the Birkenstock Years, when Lesbians turned en masse against everything patriarchal... so being ridiculed for being "too feminine" "too girly" and "buying into the patriarchy" are all part of my life too.

What was really ironic for my young friend is that her parents are a heterosexual couple. I just never expected that reaction from them, yanno? I MOST especially didn't expect it from anyone who would name her children variations on a name that translates as "good girl" lol.... "here, let me give you this incredibly gendered name which is LOADED with societal expectations... but hey there, don't you live up to it!" lol...

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Bit

.... "here, let me give you this incredibly gendered name which is LOADED with societal expectations... but hey there, don't you live up to it!" lol...

I discussed this with Stearns the other day.

How do people feel about naming their children with really gendered names when, as members of this community, we know that some went through their lives loathing the names they were assigned at birth?

-------

Julie,

I am not avoiding answering the question. I had started writing a response but I wasn't satisfied with it, so I am sitting on it for awhile.

As far as the poll, I voted *agree*--will elaborate later.

------

Thanks to all who voted or responded. I find it very interesting to mull over the various implications of their decision.

[morningstar55]

Originally Posted by ruthie14

The sad thing is that one of them DOES get flack from her folks.... but it isn't the boyish looking one, oh no--it's the young glamour girl!! Surprised me a lot. They backed off some after I stood up for her.


Good for you bit... you would be surprised (or maybe not) I was... how much flack I get from other lesbians. Strange isn't it. I love my nail polish and my sundresses and I get told I can't tell you how many times, that I should just "give up that butch femme thing if I ever want to find a woman". REALLY??

Sorry to get off topic... struck a chord... I digress

.. if i had a nickel for everytime i heard that same thing from my lesbian and str9 friends.... ooYY......
great story and topic.. How.

[Sachita]

perhaps in a perfect world.

I disagree. rather then deny any gender identity, homeschool and teach better values based on freedom from labels and social structures. If I had a child today I would home school and carefully be involved. Yesterday a friend and mother said if she were a new mother today she would be a better mother, knowing more. I agree because I've journeyed this and know. you can teach better. Teach them dont confuse them and make them stand out oddly.

very interesting tho

[cane]

Originally Posted by Diva

Well.
THIS is intriguing.

On the one hand.....what a gift. To the parents.
Will the child be home-schooled? Because I can see a potential dilemma arise when it's time to visit the loo.

I believe that right now, the parents are living in a smug little world where they have control. It will soon change. If not now, if not kindergarten, then surely by puberty.

And there will be another box of issues.......

It will be interesting to follow.....and I wish the child well. The next one, too.

Diva,

in Sweden you don't have the option to home school your children, we see it as a question of democracy.

and... in swedish schools there are no boys- and girls loos, there are just loos....

[Laerkin]

Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about this. If the parents are doing this as a way to encourage Pop to explore the world without typical constraints, then I think it's kind of cool (but I think the publicity surrounding the situation will influence Pop in other ways).

If the parents are doing this as a political or social demonstration, then I'd say their heart is in the wrong place.

I agree with the other posts that distinguish between gender and sex. Sex is a very different beast than gender. Gender is fluid, ever changing, flexible, and grows with us as we take on new experiences and meet new people. If the goal is to allow Pop total freedom on this sliding scale, it's a radical but interesting concept. Imagine if all of us were told to try on any gender, situate ourselves in as many places along the gender spectrum as we want, until we find a place that feels like home - and we'll be accepted no matter what? Pretty empowering stuff.

Of course, as an adult it means something very different than it does for a toddler who can't possibly conceptualize these things.

I hope the parents don't go to such extremes that Pop ends up being an outcast within the community.

I do fully support the idea that gender is all about self-expression and self-exploration and it would be a hell of a lot easier to feel good about our gender if people weren't always trying to make us fit into THEIR idea of what we should be.

PS - I think the other story the doctors reference from 1967 is a ridiculous analogy. This is a case of genital mutilation (initially an accident, it sounds like). It's astonishing how prevalent medical genital mutilation is here in the States. Often times, girls born with clitoromegaly are treated with a surgery that cuts off some of the clitoris to make it smaller - leaving them with scar tissue and sometimes compromised sensation - all because a parent was uncomfortable with their daughter having a visible clit. Big fucking deal. Or children born with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) - I've read stories of AIS cases when the parents choose a sex for their child by having part of their reproductive organs removed and later the child wants nothing more than to have had the choice. This is all very different from the case of Pop and Pop's parents. I think it's speaks volumes about the assumptions that these doctors are making when they compare flexible gender expression with something like non-consensual medical genital alterations or AIS individuals.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by cane

Diva,

in Sweden you don't have the option to home school your children, we see it as a question of democracy.

and... in swedish schools there are no boys- and girls loos, there are just loos....

Cane,

I know this is off topic, but could please explain why the option of home schooling is a question of democracy? (I agree, btw)

I am Canadian and feel that most of our educational system is very similar to Sweden's. We have great schools, in every district--there is equal funding across all districts for all schools and more for those who need the most help--most people do not home school nor are there Charter schools (except in Alberta). I don't know one person who has been home schooled either but I know that it does exist--I mean, there is a program for that.

As a Canadian teacher, I find the school system in the USA very unfair to those who live in a disadvantaged area and monies are directed toward those neighbourhoods where there are *good schools* with *well-off people* (and property taxes pay more for their *better schools* and they feel they deserve them!).

This, from I have observed, just solidifies the inequities in the educational system where gov't monies are sometimes given to those schools who achieve high scores on mandated tests. In Canada, those districts who have perhaps underprivileged students or issues with English not being their first language get MORE money. No one that I have ever met in Canada chooses to live in an area b/c of *good schools*; all teachers get paid very similarly across the country as well.

Ok, I went off on a tangent! My main question is to explain to others why home schooling, in Sweden, falls under a question of democracy.

[cane]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Cane,

I know this is off topic, but could please explain why the option of home schooling is a question of democracy? (I agree, btw)

I am Canadian and feel that most of our educational system is very similar to Sweden's. We have great schools, in every district--there is equal funding across all districts for all schools and more for those who need the most help--most people do not home school nor are there Charter schools (except in Alberta). I don't know one person who has been home schooled either but I know that it does exist--I mean, there is a program for that.

As a Canadian teacher, I find the school system in the USA very unfair to those who live in a disadvantaged area and monies are directed toward those neighbourhoods where there are *good schools* with *well-off people* (and property taxes pay more for their *better schools* and they feel they deserve them!).

This, from I have observed, just solidifies the inequities in the educational system where gov't monies are sometimes given to those schools who achieve high scores on mandated tests. In Canada, those districts who have perhaps underprivileged students or issues with English not being their first language get MORE money. No one that I have ever met in Canada chooses to live in an area b/c of *good schools*; all teachers get paid very similarly across the country as well.

Ok, I went off on a tangent! My main question is to explain to others why home schooling, in Sweden, falls under a question of democracy.

How Soon Is Now,

it's a question of democracy based on the idea that everyone has the right to the same education.

Maybe some parents are great teachers but that doesn't go for all. Also, in our (I mean teachers) work, helping the child in the socialization process is an important part. Learning how to interact with peers, learning the rules of society. This is harder to achive when going to school at home, with a parent as teacher and no peers around.
Finally, I had five years of university studies to be able to call myself a teacher. Is it possible that I didn't learn anything of value during that time, if anyone without a degree can do my job just as well, it must be.

So, to go back to where I started, everyone has the right to the same education, a good education, involving qualified teachers, this to result in confident upstanding people, with enough knowledge to be able to live their lives and take care of themselves. And also in the end, be able to run our country (vote with knowledge).
That is democracy - people that are not subject to ignorance and that drives our country forward.

(Sorry for my bad english - I am swedish as you probably understand)

[cane]

....and when speaking of the same education, everyone gets the same in sweden, the same medical care, the same dental care, the same schooling, the same senior citizen care, the same wellfare (should they need it) and so on... Should you want someting different that is of course your choice, but then you would have to pay for it yourself. Otherwise, all these things are free in Sweden and everyone has the same rights.
(Off the topic I know...)

[suebee]

Heard today while I was shopping: Mother getting shopping cart with 18 month-old baby:
"You're okay. You don't have to cry anymore." WARM
"You're a big boy. Big boys don't cry." COLDER
"C'mon now! You're a man! Men don't cry!" COLD! COLD! COLD!
All this within about 45 seconds. The poor little guy. I sure as hell hope for his sake he turns out to be a rough and tough kid!

[NJFemmie]

I'm not sure how I feel about it. I voted undecided, but more accurately I feel indifferent - I pretty much feel that it isn't so damaging.

My mom of course told me I was a girl - or at the very least, it was already known to me (duh), but growing up, my parents (more so my mother than father), didn't attach gender labels to anything. I wasn't told that this was for boys, or that should be for girls -- I was virtually free from gender assignments. I consider that a blessing - it gave me the opportunity to really define myself without gender influence.

Now granted, I was disappointed when I discovered I couldn't effectively pee standing up, but it didn't damage me. I dealt with it.

... and I've always said that if I were to ever have children - they would be raised the same way my mother raised me. I would want my child to gravitate toward what she/he feels most comfortable.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by cane

Diva,

in Sweden you don't have the option to home school your children, we see it as a question of democracy.

and... in swedish schools there are no boys- and girls loos, there are just loos....

I am a fan of 'stalls' and 'urinals' as to the type of restrooms needed for group settings.

I find it fascinating that most of the experts have no vision of a truly different society. You will hurt the poor little babies because this IS the way the world IS.

If you want to change the paradigm, then stop answering questions about sex and gender. Do what these parents are doing. Why does girl or boy matter? If we are ever going to shed the blanket of the patriarchy, then we must take that first step.

Changing the paradigm requires action. How do you actually CHANGE the way kids are brought up? You do that by actually doing what this story talks about.

How about if an entire small town raised up a bunch of kids who didn't care about day to day drag (the clothes you put on)? There is no boys do and wear these things. Girls wear and do these things. Boys cry when they are hurt and girls do too.
================

There was a thread about this same thing several years ago at the dash site. I'm wondering if this is another viral story moving across the net. It doesn't matter as it'a subject worth talking about. I believe the child's name was X. X does not mean boy or girl. X is required for male, female, intersexed.