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View Poll Results: How do you feel about the parents' decision to keep their child's gender a secret?
Agree 21 30.43%
Disagree 22 31.88%
Undecided 26 37.68%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-04-2010, 03:56 PM   #1
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Originally Posted by PearlsNLace View Post
WOW. I know I have grown up in an instant gratification culture- I desperately want to fast forward, and see where this childs story goes.

Thank you for sharing!
Oh my, I HAVE changed... your post made me realize this, Pearls. There was a time when just like you I would have wanted to know right away what would happen. But it isn't so important to me to know right away.... I'm content to let this one take its time and work itself through, and I'm willing to put my curiosity on hold until the story is finally completely told. How interesting!
~~~~~~~~

It's very interesting about Pop, too. My immediate thought was "Intersexed in some fashion" because I seriously don't get the feeling Pop's parents are on a personal crusade to TeachTheWorldAThingOrTwo---but I DO get "protecting our child" vibes really strongly. It will be really interesting to watch this story unfold and see where it goes, see if I'm right or wrong about the parents, see what choices Pop makes in life... oh and that first "expert" the article quoted, who said that children always play with those of their own sex? Somebody PLEASE introduce her to a Butch or three, m'kay?
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Old 09-04-2010, 05:24 PM   #2
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Default A little anecdote....

I was at a take-out restaurant last week and just happened to be sitting at the picnic table next to the playground equipment. A cute little girl came up and started playing and struck up a conversation with me. A few minutes later another child ran up and started playing with her. They looked very much alike but I didn't know if the second child was a girl or a boy. When they introduced themselves it turned out they were twin sisters - identical. One preferred pink and purple, the other always wore black. One loved frilly clothes, the other wore only boy's clothes. And the little pink-clad girl recounted all this to me as a matter-of-a-fact. I met the mother about fifteen minutes later (when the girls and I were OLD pals! ) and her attitude was that her daughters were who they were, and she had no reason to encourage them to be other wise. She was a GREAT Mom!

Just about then my girl - wearing her brown and black "boy's" clothes came back to the table. I introduced the girls to her, and she took the hint. She told them that she too preferred boy's clothes, and in fact she knew twin sisters who were much like them: one wore girl's clothes, and the other boy's clothes. It was great!

By the way, the girls are starting school this year, and will be in different classes, and they're fine with that.

Back to the OP's story: the more I think about it the more I think that the parents have a specific reason for doing this - one related more personally to their child rather than the principle of not pre-defining what gender means to him/her. And let's face it, at some point either neighbourhood kids or kids at school are gonna want to play "show me yours....." and the secret will be out. I think they risk making it a great challenge for others to find out what the great secret is.

Interesting situation though.
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Old 09-04-2010, 05:53 PM   #3
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Really interesting discussion! Ruthie I appreciate your input. I had not thought of it that way. Kids do interpret things differently than adults.

I answered that I agreed with the parents but I don't think it is my place to judge how they want to raise their child. I don't think they are being abusive or hurting the child.

I don't believe that Pop will grow up without any ideas about gender though.

What do you think Jo?
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Old 09-04-2010, 06:22 PM   #4
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That's interesting about the twins, Sue. We have friends who have a pair of seven year old girls--one always dressed to the nines even in play clothes, and one always in jeans and a t-shirt; one with her hair always curled or styled, one with straight hair she does nothing with. If they were seventeen instead of seven, I swear one would always be wearing make-up and the other, nevereverever, lol...

The sad thing is that one of them DOES get flack from her folks.... but it isn't the boyish looking one, oh no--it's the young glamour girl!! Surprised me a lot. They backed off some after I stood up for her.
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Old 09-04-2010, 06:38 PM   #5
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The sad thing is that one of them DOES get flack from her folks.... but it isn't the boyish looking one, oh no--it's the young glamour girl!! Surprised me a lot. They backed off some after I stood up for her.


Good for you bit... you would be surprised (or maybe not) I was... how much flack I get from other lesbians. Strange isn't it. I love my nail polish and my sundresses and I get told I can't tell you how many times, that I should just "give up that butch femme thing if I ever want to find a woman". REALLY??

Sorry to get off topic... struck a chord... I digress
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:11 PM   #6
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Well actually, Ruthie, I was a very girly person early on, and ran smack into what I call the Birkenstock Years, when Lesbians turned en masse against everything patriarchal... so being ridiculed for being "too feminine" "too girly" and "buying into the patriarchy" are all part of my life too.

What was really ironic for my young friend is that her parents are a heterosexual couple. I just never expected that reaction from them, yanno? I MOST especially didn't expect it from anyone who would name her children variations on a name that translates as "good girl" lol.... "here, let me give you this incredibly gendered name which is LOADED with societal expectations... but hey there, don't you live up to it!" lol...
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:16 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Bit View Post
.... "here, let me give you this incredibly gendered name which is LOADED with societal expectations... but hey there, don't you live up to it!" lol...
I discussed this with Stearns the other day.

How do people feel about naming their children with really gendered names when, as members of this community, we know that some went through their lives loathing the names they were assigned at birth?

-------

Julie,

I am not avoiding answering the question. I had started writing a response but I wasn't satisfied with it, so I am sitting on it for awhile.

As far as the poll, I voted *agree*--will elaborate later.

------

Thanks to all who voted or responded. I find it very interesting to mull over the various implications of their decision.
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Old 09-05-2010, 03:32 AM   #8
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I had a long post thought out last evening, but it kinda disappeared in the early morning , so I'll keep it short.

It seems that Pinker presumes that the child is being raised sexless, while it seems to me it is only being raised genderless.
I got from this story that the parents are open with their child as far as its sex is concerned.
They are giving it options, not pushing him into dresses or pants but offering both.
They have also said that they will disclose sex when Pop wants to. So if Pop, at 6, decides to wear dresses and is a male... they didn't push him for 6 important years into something he doesn't want. If Pop chooses clothes that fit into its sex+gender stereotype, fine, too. (+ Pop's a child - s/he doesn't know that we, adults, see this cut of fabric as feminine, and this, with a stitch between legs, as masculine.)

I think it's important to take some more things into account.
- This is Sweden.
(Not necessarily this or that, just... different. It's interesting for me to see how their experts are either pro or 'not sure'.)
- This is a new generation.

The David/Brenda case.
For me, it doesn't stand. The comparison might, the likening doesn't.
The child's sex was taken from him and he was made to live as opposite.
Pop: the sex is Pop's and Pop is given a choice, presented both. Or none, too, I guess.

I don't think Pop's intersexed, because the parents said they'll do the same with the second child.
Doing the same to the second if they were just protecting the first would seem too much, no?
I don't know what the chances are for two children to be both born intersexed.

I think it's also important to view some things like this:
- Pop may be special, later in life, but maybe not because Pop was given a choice, but because others weren't. (I can't explain it much better at this time, but I think about it like this: some kid, Alex, is not weird because s/he has a dog, but because all the other kids in the neighbourhood have cats. There's nothing wrong with having a dog per se and to think there is, just because Alex will feel 'out', isn't right. It's not about the dog, it's about groups.)
- If Pop grows up to be a sad person, it shouldn't be blamed on this.
- If Pop grows up to be a happy person, it shouldn't be blamed on this. (And I think the former is more likely to garner attention and blaming, unfortunately. In both cases it should be examined what part of Pop's happiness is linked to this and just that part be blamed on it.)

This is, of course, just my take on things.

Thank you, Nat, for putting this story up, and HowSoonIsNow for making it into a topic. I really enjoyed reading all these responses in both threads .

Edit: Well, not so short in the end, it seems .
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Old 09-05-2010, 05:05 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by ruthie14 View Post
The sad thing is that one of them DOES get flack from her folks.... but it isn't the boyish looking one, oh no--it's the young glamour girl!! Surprised me a lot. They backed off some after I stood up for her.


Good for you bit... you would be surprised (or maybe not) I was... how much flack I get from other lesbians. Strange isn't it. I love my nail polish and my sundresses and I get told I can't tell you how many times, that I should just "give up that butch femme thing if I ever want to find a woman". REALLY??

Sorry to get off topic... struck a chord... I digress
.. if i had a nickel for everytime i heard that same thing from my lesbian and str9 friends.... ooYY......
great story and topic.. How
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Old 09-05-2010, 05:56 AM   #10
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perhaps in a perfect world.

I disagree. rather then deny any gender identity, homeschool and teach better values based on freedom from labels and social structures. If I had a child today I would home school and carefully be involved. Yesterday a friend and mother said if she were a new mother today she would be a better mother, knowing more. I agree because I've journeyed this and know. you can teach better. Teach them dont confuse them and make them stand out oddly.

very interesting tho
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