The Gendering of the Young

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Yes the kid can observe the gender class system with some objectivity since Pop is not yet personally assigned to either class by society at large.

But the child is two years old. I think adults can observe with some objectivity but a toddler cannot. I had not thought about how this would seem to the child until Ruthie mentioned it in the other thread.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

But the child is two years old. I think adults can observe with some objectivity but a toddler cannot. I had not thought about how this would seem to the child until Ruthie mentioned it in the other thread.

Not sure what you're saying here julieisafemme... I meant objective observation related to your thoughts posted above (about how Pop can still observe gender class without yet being part of it). I did not mean that two year olds possess adult analytic capacity and abstract thinking, simply that Pop can observe while not yet being a part of.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Not sure what you're saying here julieisafemme... I meant objective observation related to your thoughts posted above (about how Pop can still observe gender class without yet being part of it). I did not mean that two year olds possess adult analytic capacity and abstract thinking, simply that Pop can observe while not yet being a part of.

Ah! I understand. I was kind of speaking more to myself there! When I posted at first I was not really thinking about the child's age. Ruthie brought me back to my own child's toddler days and I started thinking about how would a child view her or himself if their gender was never referred to? I am caught up in trying to imagine this. Children at that age are so concrete and like to label things. Anyway it is a very interesting subject. Sorry to confuse you!

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Ah! I understand. I was kind of speaking more to myself there! When I posted at first I was not really thinking about the child's age. Ruthie brought me back to my own child's toddler days and I started thinking about how would a child view her or himself if their gender was never referred to? I am caught up in trying to imagine this. Children at that age are so concrete and like to label things. Anyway it is a very interesting subject. Sorry to confuse you!

Lol that's okay, I'm easily confused...
As to how children would view their humanness in the absence of gender class?
They would probably not think of gender much at all if there was no social class status attached. They would be "feminine" or "masculine" or neither or both regardless of their genital configuration. Since there would be no politics attached to their presumed reproductive function it wouldn't really be much of a filter for one's self image.
Whether one had an "inny" or an "outie" would be about it- much like bellybuttons.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Lol that's okay, I'm easily confused...
As to how children would view their humanness in the absence of gender class?
They would probably not think of gender much at all if there was no social class status attached. They would be "feminine" or "masculine" or neither or both regardless of their genital configuration. Since there would be no politics attached to their presumed reproductive function it wouldn't really be much of a filter for one's self image.
Whether one had an "inny" or an "outie" would be about it- much like bellybuttons.

This idea of humanness has really caught me. I think I identify as a woman first and human second. I guess I can't imagine being devoid of my gender. My reproductive function is a filter for my self image. I don't find that to be a problem. I love my femaleness and the fact that I carried my child and labored to bring her here and fed her.

You said in another post that "Feminism is about creating a world where those sexed female at birth are allowed to grow up as fully human." I am trying to understand this. Do you mean that feminism's goal is to eradicate gender? Can one grow up to be fully human and a woman as well?

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

This idea of humanness has really caught me. I think I identify as a woman first and human second. I guess I can't imagine being devoid of my gender. My reproductive function is a filter for my self image. I don't find that to be a problem. I love my femaleness and the fact that I carried my child and labored to bring her here and fed her.

You said in another post that "Feminism is about creating a world where those sexed female at birth are allowed to grow up as fully human." I am trying to understand this. Do you mean that feminism's goal is to eradicate gender? Can one grow up to be fully human and a woman as well?

Your reproductive function is a function of your sex, not your gender.

Feminism makes a distinction between sex and gender.
Sex: anatomy and physiology
Gender: social role
Feminism seeks to detach social role expectations from anatomy.
Social role expectations based on anatomy uphold male supremacy.

Social constructs like gender are malleable. Feminism is concerned with dismantling gender as a social construction used to uphold sex-based apartheid.
What gender may look like after removing the sex-based caste system currently attached is irrelevant to feminism..

The only concern of feminism is making sure kids like Pop have all the same human rights and privileges accorded them regardless of their reproductive anatomy.

Do I know of any culture where girls grow up with all the same human privileges and rights as boys? I can’t say that I do. Do you?

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Your reproductive function is a function of your sex, not your gender.

Feminism makes a distinction between sex and gender.
Sex: anatomy and physiology
Gender: social role
Feminism seeks to detach social role expectations from anatomy.
Social role expectations based on anatomy uphold male supremacy.

Social constructs like gender are malleable. Feminism is concerned with dismantling gender as a social construction used to uphold sex-based apartheid.
What gender may look like after removing the sex-based caste system currently attached is irrelevant to feminism..

The only concern of feminism is making sure kids like Pop have all the same human rights and privileges accorded them regardless of their reproductive anatomy.

Do I know of any culture where girls grow up with all the same human privileges and rights as boys? I can’t say that I do. Do you?

Yes I am aware of the difference between sex and gender.

I don't agree that gender is an entirely social construct though. I would say that my reproductive function informs my gender. For myself the two are intertwined in such a way as to be indistinguishable from one another. I am well aware that this is not the case for everyone. My gender is not fluid. Again I am well aware that this is not the case for eveyone.

Thank you for breaking it down that way. It is helpful to me.