Freethinkers/Atheists/Naturalists Unite

dreadgeek · 12-07-2009, 11:50 AM

Hey all:

So lacking any better place to put this topic, I decided to put it underneath Body/Mind/Spirit (although it's not exactly where I would want it but no matter). At any rate, this is a space for that small minority of us who hold to a naturalistic worldview. Some of us call ourselves freethinkers, others may use the term atheists (although these are not the same thing) and others may prefer the term naturalist. Whatever it is, if you live your life without gods, angels, The Secret, or other such ideas and ideologies this is the place for you.

So, a bit about me:

I am a non-theist, scientific naturalist who incorporates Buddhism into my world view to create and bring meaning into my life. I am studying bioinformatics, which is a marriage of computer science and biology. In a prior career incarnation, I was a freelance science reporter mostly covering HIV/AIDS treatment and breast cancer research but that was back in the early 90's.

I am a recovering Pentecostal Christian who was raised partially in the Southern Baptist church and partially in the AME (African Methodist Episcopal). After I left the church, I spent a number of years in the New Age movement (I was in the Bay Area) and fell out of it when, after reading Fred Alan Wolf's "Taking the Quantum Leap" I wanted to read a little bit deeper into the subject of quantum mechanics and discovered, much to my surprise, that quantum mechanics as described by 'mainstream' physicists and those described by, what I'll generously call the renegades is *very* different. The more I read into QM, the more I came to appreciate this amazing universe we inhabit on its own terms which led, over time, to my adopting a worldview unencumbered by supernatural considerations.

Cheers
Aj

Medusa · 12-07-2009, 01:41 PM

Hey AJ!

I was glad to see you start this thread! A lot of these themes have been circling in my head of late. I, too, was raised in a Southern Baptist environment and this time of year always brings up memories for me of being taught that Christmas was a "Christian" holiday, having discussions with my mom about how "Santa Claus" worked for God, and seeing (in my own child's mind) greed and sloth take over in some areas of my family.

I am also a non-theist at this point in my life and incorporate Buddhist principals into my way of being to feel balanced. I feel more peaceful in my life without the presence of a "God" than I ever did while attending church. I often speak of things that the "universe" provides but I think that for me, when I think of the "universe" it is less about an entity and more about all of those forces of electicity that we create as human beings.

My path of late has brought me back around to wanting to expand my knowledge and thinking about the Quantum. I came across this book on amazon: "Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounters Consciousness by Bruce Rosenblum" and thought I might give it a read. Do you have any recommendations for interesting reads?

I love how you characterize a "world view" without supernatural considerations. Can you talk more about what that looks like to you?

Great thread!

Apocalipstic · 12-07-2009, 02:17 PM

Another recovering Southern Baptist here, is this maybe a theme?

When I found out I had been lied to about Santa Clause, I decided I had also been lied to about there being a God. I was ten. Since my parents were SB missionaries, I lived inside my head and tried to fit in and believe but logically how can we really know what happens after death?

I'm not a scientist, but I believe that we are all made from and connected by electricity.

There are good parts in every religion, though it confuses me how often religion is used as an excuse for really bad behavior.

Thanks for starting this thread, I am very interested in reading and thinking about how we can live in a connected, joyful and humane way without believing in a celestial dude (no disrespect to the FSM, of course

)

weatherboi · 12-07-2009, 02:46 PM

Hey A.J.!! Great thread!!

I too am meandering down a non-theist path and am loving it. My last venture into some sort of Christian worship was Science of Mind. I was introduced to the idea of quantum physics and our ability to create/introduce/manifest, good and bad in our lives through energy or as Medusa put it, forces of electricity (I like that wording).

I read Quantum Enigma. I will admit, I went to see "What the Bleep" and was not to impressed with my interpretation of what they were presenting. This book gave me a believable format/theory to ruminate on and gain a better understanding of how energy and critical thinking can work together.

This site is a good source of info.

http://www.hyponoesis.org/

I enjoyed this article.

http://www.ianthompson.org/papers/Th...ember_2002.pdf

Look forward to reading more here.
Good day!

another good one I reread to help form interpretation
http://www.rosado.net/pdf/Spirituality_SD_3.pdf

dreadgeek · 12-08-2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa

Hey AJ!

I was glad to see you start this thread! A lot of these themes have been circling in my head of late. I, too, was raised in a Southern Baptist environment and this time of year always brings up memories for me of being taught that Christmas was a "Christian" holiday, having discussions with my mom about how "Santa Claus" worked for God, and seeing (in my own child's mind) greed and sloth take over in some areas of my family.

I am also a non-theist at this point in my life and incorporate Buddhist principals into my way of being to feel balanced. I feel more peaceful in my life without the presence of a "God" than I ever did while attending church. I often speak of things that the "universe" provides but I think that for me, when I think of the "universe" it is less about an entity and more about all of those forces of electicity that we create as human beings.

My path of late has brought me back around to wanting to expand my knowledge and thinking about the Quantum. I came across this book on amazon: "Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounters Consciousness by Bruce Rosenblum" and thought I might give it a read. Do you have any recommendations for interesting reads?

I love how you characterize a "world view" without supernatural considerations. Can you talk more about what that looks like to you?

Great thread!

Medusa:

I'll take the really difficult bit, your last question, first. What I mean by this is that as far as we are able to tell, this is a material universe with no gods, no afterlife, and no 'supernatural' entities or powers. It also is a universe that has no inherent meaning (by which I mean that the universe isn't here to teach us a lesson, it exists for itself). So any meaning I manage to eke out of the universe is my meaning. It also means that I am responsible for what I do in this life, not an afterlife (which I see no evidence for) or reincarnation (which I also see no evidence for). So I am responsible for how I treat others now, in the moment. My motivation for being whatever kind of decent person I can manage is that I prefer the outcomes from behaving in an ethical fashion more than I prefer the outcomes from the alternative.

It also means that I'm responsible for developing wisdom, two bits of which I think are: "you're not going to get everything you want" and "you're going to die". These seem like common sense but a lot of religious/spiritual thought actually seems to go in exactly the opposite direction. Whether it is the belief in an afterlife ("sure, you're going to die but once you die you live forever in heaven) or the idea that through "quantum healing" you need never grow old (an idea that Deepak Chopra espouses) or the ideas behind "The Secret" or "What the Bleep Do We Know", I see all of those espousing the idea that we *can* have anything we want if we just ask the universe for it and we don't have to face our own mortality. I would rather live in a slightly less comfortable world facing life standing up and clear-eyed than in a comfortable world of illusions. This, of course, I do imperfectly.

Lastly, it means appreciating Nature in all of its beauty *and* its ugliness. There are things in Nature that are heart-achingly beautiful and that's *before* we get to human created artifacts like music. Look at the pictures from the Hubble Space Telescope to see what I mean. There are parts of nature that are just unimaginably ugly and cruel--try to think of the last seconds of life of an antelope from its perspective as the lioness' claws tear into its hind flanks to bring it down. Now try to think of what happens to the lioness and her cubs should she fail. Either the antelope ends its life in fear, terror or pain or the lioness and her cubs end their lives in starvation--either way someone has to die. But that's just nature being nature and I can appreciate the sublime beauty of it all. Nature can inspire awe not because it is here for us but because we are its products.

Hopefully that gives you some sense of where I'm coming from.

As far as some good books on quantum theory, I can think of nothing better than "The Elegant Universe" and "The Fabric of the Cosmos" both by Brian Greene. I'm planning on picking up two books by Victor Stenger based upon other books of his I've read. They are "Quantum Gods: Physics and Psychics" and "The Unconscious Quantum".

Cheers
Aj

Apocalipstic · 12-08-2009, 04:10 PM

When I study history I can understand why so many people were/are drawn to religion. Life is not fair, and for many I think that religion could say that even if you had 12 children die of Malaria and a drunken husband who beat you and so on, you could count on many crowns in heaven. When life is really harsh, it has to seem comforting to know that after death, things will be better than anyone alive can even imagine...Except, there is zero proof of heaven or hell, or that we go anywhere after death.

I remember in 5th grade, kids in my class were laughing at the "ridiculous" things the Greeks and Romans believed religiously and I remember saying something about these myths not being very different than Bible stories. In fact, they all sounded like explanations for the unexplainable. The need to know, to be in control of one's future.

Here and now is what counts. How we treat people today. That is all we have really.

Andrew, Jr. · 12-08-2009, 04:23 PM

I am very open minded, and more of a naturalist than anything else. As for religious beliefs - I am Roman Catholic with a mix of Buddist principles I follow. I am involved in the paranormal, and have been for a number of years.

I left organized religion for well over 20 some odd years, but when my older sister was diagnosed with skin cancer, I tried to bargain with God. I went back to Church, and hoped and prayed that my actions would save her life. She died on Oct. 16, 2008 at home with everyone by her side. I was the very last person to talk to her alive. She went into a coma, and then passed away less than an hour later. I will always treasure that 15 minutes I had with her.

Now I have a more peaceful life than ever before. I do more volunteer work than I have before. I enjoy working at food banks, homeless shelters, and at a local hospice center. However, now that my sister died, I just cannot bring myself to go back to the hospice center.

How I got involved with the paranormal is at the hospice center. See when the dying are transitioning to a new life, it is like a baby being born. It is a process. Unfortunately, some people die alone. And some people die with family surrounding them. For those who are skeptics, I just say this to them...go volunteer for just a day or a few hours at a hospice center. You will see things that you cannot explain. You will feel things that you never felt before. And you will experience life like you never have before. It changes everything you ever thought about or believed in.

Same thing happened to me at NIH in Bethesda. I could walk around Building 10 - that is where some cancer patients go. Jo was on floor 8. However, when she was being taken for Pet Scans, Xrays, Blood Work, or whatever, I would have to walk around. In walking around I would see, feel, and hear things that were not very pleasant. In fact, I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy. I always say cancer sucks. And it does. I am not sure of what is worse, cancer or the treatments.

Namaste,
Andrew

MsDemeanor · 12-08-2009, 11:27 PM

An Aj thread!!!! And me too damn busy right now to toss in my two cents worth!!!!

I'll be back. You've all been warned.

weatherboi · 12-09-2009, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

An Aj thread!!!! And me too damn busy right now to toss in my two cents worth!!!!

I'll be back. You've all been warned.

Oy Vey everybody scatter!!!

Medusa · 12-09-2009, 10:15 AM

An interesting article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert..._b_384515.html

Andrew, Jr. · 12-09-2009, 10:41 AM

Dusa,

Did you see on SyFy the attempt to show near death experiences? It was done at a hospital I believe in Europe (Germany I think it was at). The dr's placed signs up on the ceiling and on equipment in the ER and Critical Care Units to see if patients who were revived could show time travel, after life, and so on. It was fascinating.

Years ago people laughed at people who were free thinkers and naturalists. Now, today, look at what we do. We fly into deep space, and fly back to earth on the same plane.

MsDemeanor · 12-09-2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Oy Vey everybody scatter!!!

Where's a good snort coffee out my nose smilie when you need one?

Linus · 12-09-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

Where's a good snort coffee out my nose smilie when you need one?

<-- not quite the same but close

MsDemeanor · 12-09-2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linus

<-- not quite the same but close

That'll do!!!

Linus, you rock!!!

NJFemmie · 12-09-2009, 12:34 PM

I am not an atheist, but I consider myself to be a free thinking and open minded recovering Catholic. I have and still incorporate Buddhist principals into my daily life, but there is a large part of me that would like to believe that something much bigger exists out there. I don't necessarily believe in God as the bible or religious practices would state (hence why I am no longer a practicing minister) - but I like to think there is at least a collective energy that drives and pushes us forward.

In any case, I am always interested in learning new theories and beliefs - and think this is a great thread topic and look forward to some useful and educational information on here

MsDemeanor · 12-10-2009, 03:40 PM

I wonder what they mean by "Almighty God". Christian God, Muslim God, Tribal God? Would they consider Buddha to be a God? How about Goddesses? Is "God" gender-specific? The Parking Goddess - the only deity that exists as far as I am concerned - was very kind to me yesterday. Twice. And I have a witness to prove it. Is she "almighty" enough to pass their test? If they ever had to find a perfect parking space in a busy city on a regular basis, would they possibly reconsider their position on the Parking Goddess? Could I snark on all day about the high level of bullshit that is this unconstitutional law? You betcha.

linkyloo

MsDemeanor · 12-10-2009, 08:43 PM

Here's my view of religion and gods and faith and spirituality and that stuff.

It's all phooey.

Once upon a time, ancient man created gods to explain the things in nature that he couldn't understand. Eclipses, droughts, good and bad growing seasons, earthquakes, whatever. Well, now we've moved on to a point where humans can figure this stuff out. We haven't figured it all out yet, but we'll eventually get around to it. We don't need to pray to the earthquake god any more.

When I see news reports of people killing each other because they are different religions, I think that it's tragic. It's so far beyond stupid that it can't see stupid in the rear view mirror. Fight over land or minerals or some such tangeble thing, but don't go around killing each other because you read from a different scripture or say your prayers a different way. How damn stupid.

Organized religion, especially when I look at what it's done and is doing in this country, is evil. You can't call yourself an organization of compassion when you let millions suffer because you place more importance on cast-off embryos that could be used for stem cell research than you place on people who are here and alive and in pain and dieing. You can't call yourself an organization of compassion when you threaten to quit helping the poor in an area because that area wants to allow queers to marry. You can't call yourself an organization of compassion and then relentlessly harass my grandmother because she doesn't give you ten percent of her widows pension until you drive her and her entire family out of the church for good. The list goes on, but you get my drift. So much of it is not about faith or compassion or caring or any of the multitude of things it claims; it's about power over people, it's about politics and control, it's about money. Now, I know less that didly about a lot of religions, maybe there are a bunch that don't do evil stuff, but they aren't in the news so I'm not aware of what they are up to. I'm speaking about the ones that make headlines.

Forcing one religion on everybody else is wrong wrong wrong and wrong. Okay, your particular faith doesn't believe in abortion and doesn't want government money to provide them with insurance policies. Well guess what, I'm not a part of your religion and your beliefs are not my beliefs and I paid my tax dollars in to that system just the same as everyone else, so if I want an abortion then STFU and let me use my damn insurance to pay for the procedure. Charity is fine and dandy, we should all do more of it, but making people listen to you preach to them while you feed them isn't charity, it's recruiting. If the point is really to help people, then just STFU and help. If someone's actually interested in your religion, they can always ask you about it.

The infiltration of conservative and dominionist individuals in to our military and government scares the shit out of me. Solders are enlisting to go fight in the middle east because they think it's something biblical, the military chaplincy (is that the right word?) is being taken over by the religious right and far right; these folks are going to move up the chain of command and some day they'll be in charge. I'm not really looking forward to a future where our military is run by the religious rabid right, and it's headed that way. Put another republican in the White House (I'm assuming he/she would be a religious wing nut because those are the only kinds of republicans who seem to have any power these days), and we could all face martial law at the hands of nut jobs who think things like that the earth is 6,000 years old. We don't have to worry about progressive socialists taking over this country, the real issue is that we quite likely to be taken over by people who want to move us all back a century or five.

I don't understand politicians like those in C Street and the Palins and other extremist wing nuts and how they can be supported and stay in office and stay in power. They don't have a conscience, they think they are better than everyone else, the rules don't apply and all that matters is them and their power and what they think that their interpretation of their god wants them to do. Even if its imprisioning and murdering people in Uganda simply for being gay. One only has to read a couple of chapters in to The Family to understand why all of these republicans who have been caught up in scandle lately don't think they've done anything wrong and don't think they should have to step down. They really and honestly believe that they are better and it's really all okay.

I don't understand people who profess compassion and such and then argue in favor of things like murder. I often find myself in conversations about controversial topics where I'm the only atheist in the conversation and I'm also the most compassionate voice. The hypocrisy of posting in one thread that everyone should love and be compassionate to everyone and then posting in another thread that so-and-so should be executed makes my head explode. You can't have it both ways.

I don't get faith or spirituality. I'd be lousy in a 12-step program because I totally don't understand the "higher power" thing (don't bother trying, others have and you won't get any father than they did, plus your attempts will just irritate me). I don't understand needing to seek some purpose. I wake up every day with plenty of purpose, my calendar is full of purpose. My bills need paid, my job needs done, my dog needs a walk, I have people and critters to love and people and critters that love me, and all of that fills my needs and my heart and my life just fine. And when I die, I'll be dead and I'll decay. There aren't virgins in heaven if you murder others in the name of some god, there's no pearly gates where you get a free pass from some god that it's okay that you fucked over people Mon-Sat because you went to church every Sunday and tithed your little ten percent. There's no great afterlife and nothing to look forward to. You die, you're dead, you rot, just like every other living thing on this planet.

I do like the Christmas lights and decorations and prezzies and TV specials and some of the songs are pretty swell and Little Drummer Boy makes cry when it's done right (I don't know why), so that parts all cool and stuff, but it really bugs me that stores close on Easter.

I also go along with a lot of the stuff that Aj said in post #5, especially about responsibility and motivation for how I treat others.

Andrew, Jr. · 12-10-2009, 09:42 PM

MsDemeanor,

I agree with some of your thinking. I think it is wrong to force your religious beliefs on anyone. I think that has to come from your own journey. Everyone has to take that on themself. I meditate, and pray. I try to get to that place where I have that inner joy/peace.

I believe in helping others. I volunteer to feed the poor, donate clothes, tents, and blankets to the homeless, and when possible donate money to NIH for cancer research. I also donate money to CaringBridge in honor of my sister, JoAnn. I used to volunteer at a hospice center, but had to stop that after my sister died. It was too emotional for me. And it still is. It was pure devistation. I don't think my life will ever be the same again.

As for your thinking about stem-cells...JoAnn had stem cell treatments. It failed. I wish more was done with stem-cells. It is our only chance of helping those who have skin cancer, and those who are burned with 3rd and 4th degree burns over their bodies. I read somewhere on the NIH website that Rockefeller Univ. in NYC and Children's Hospital in Boston got the ok to donate stem cells they have to NIH - by a federal grant of some sort. It is my hope and prayer that someone will be saved by this and not have to endure the devistation that I have had to endure.

Namaste,
Andrew

MsDemeanor · 12-10-2009, 10:08 PM

Basic questions that I can't get past.

1) If there were really a god, wouldn't there be A God, one god, a singular god?

2) If there were really a god and this god provided a text, wouldn't there be A Text, one single bible or whatever you want to call it?

Instead, there's a bunch of different gods and bunch of different texts and stuff for each religion that prays to each of these gods, and sometimes a single religion will even have a bunch of different texts within that one religion and some people will pick this one and some will pick that one and stuff.

and

3) If there were really a god, and kings and other folks went around claiming that the voices in their heads were god telling them to rewrite the texts, wouldn't that god be kinda pissed?

Nowadays, they don't even bother claiming to hear voices (which, you know, if your not a king or some church higher-up and you claim to hear voices telling you to do things, you tend to get diagnosed with some mental condition). I read recently about some guys that have decided that their bible is too liberal. They've pretty much said that they are re-writing because it doesn't fit with their thinking. Word of God? I think not.

Andrew, Jr. · 12-11-2009, 04:38 AM

MsDemeanor,

This is just my thoughts on your above post.

There is just one higher power or God/Godess - however you want to acknowledge it. God has no gender because God is a spirit broken down into 3 parts Father, Son, & Holy Ghost (Christain perspective). God gave the Christain's the Ten Commandments to follow. And that is pretty much ignored in my opinion.

God is love. Life is full of chaos because of our free will. If people were more loving, kind, and peaceful we would not have wars, or children going to bed without heat or food. People would reach out and take care of each other. This is not the kind of life I imagine God wanted for us to have. Just like earth. We are slowly destroying mother earth by what we are doing to it. Greed, lack of respect, chaos, and a lack of love.

As for the different Bible's, etc. Some people pray to God differently. As some people learn differently. They may be differently written, but in the end mean the very same thing. It is like a children's Bible vs. an adult Bible vs. a visual Bible. Some are written by different perspectives. One may be written by someone living now vs. a follower of Christ. It is interpretation.

Kings and queens may rule countries, but I am not sure I understand this part of your post.

12-07-2009, 11:50 AM	#1
dreadgeek Power Femme How Do You Identify?: Cinnamon spiced, caramel colored, power-femme Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: Married to a wonderful horse girl Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lat: 45.60 Lon: -122.60 Posts: 1,733 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,132 Thanked 6,844 Times in 1,493 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	Freethinkers/Atheists/Naturalists Unite Hey all: So lacking any better place to put this topic, I decided to put it underneath Body/Mind/Spirit (although it's not exactly where I would want it but no matter). At any rate, this is a space for that small minority of us who hold to a naturalistic worldview. Some of us call ourselves freethinkers, others may use the term atheists (although these are not the same thing) and others may prefer the term naturalist. Whatever it is, if you live your life without gods, angels, The Secret, or other such ideas and ideologies this is the place for you. So, a bit about me: I am a non-theist, scientific naturalist who incorporates Buddhism into my world view to create and bring meaning into my life. I am studying bioinformatics, which is a marriage of computer science and biology. In a prior career incarnation, I was a freelance science reporter mostly covering HIV/AIDS treatment and breast cancer research but that was back in the early 90's. I am a recovering Pentecostal Christian who was raised partially in the Southern Baptist church and partially in the AME (African Methodist Episcopal). After I left the church, I spent a number of years in the New Age movement (I was in the Bay Area) and fell out of it when, after reading Fred Alan Wolf's "Taking the Quantum Leap" I wanted to read a little bit deeper into the subject of quantum mechanics and discovered, much to my surprise, that quantum mechanics as described by 'mainstream' physicists and those described by, what I'll generously call the renegades is very different. The more I read into QM, the more I came to appreciate this amazing universe we inhabit on its own terms which led, over time, to my adopting a worldview unencumbered by supernatural considerations. Cheers Aj

12-07-2009, 02:17 PM	#3
Apocalipstic Pink Confection How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Ma'am Relationship Status: Dating Myself Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Nashville Posts: 4,266 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 17,195 Thanked 11,362 Times in 2,838 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Another recovering Southern Baptist here, is this maybe a theme? When I found out I had been lied to about Santa Clause, I decided I had also been lied to about there being a God. I was ten. Since my parents were SB missionaries, I lived inside my head and tried to fit in and believe but logically how can we really know what happens after death? I'm not a scientist, but I believe that we are all made from and connected by electricity. There are good parts in every religion, though it confuses me how often religion is used as an excuse for really bad behavior. Thanks for starting this thread, I am very interested in reading and thinking about how we can live in a connected, joyful and humane way without believing in a celestial dude (no disrespect to the FSM, of course ) __________________

12-07-2009, 02:46 PM	#4
weatherboi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Owned boy Preferred Pronoun?: Hey boy!!! Relationship Status: counting freckles slowly under Her direction!!! Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: i have 2 sets of geographic coordinates!!! Posts: 6,097 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 26,797 Thanked 12,549 Times in 2,993 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	Hey A.J.!! Great thread!! I too am meandering down a non-theist path and am loving it. My last venture into some sort of Christian worship was Science of Mind. I was introduced to the idea of quantum physics and our ability to create/introduce/manifest, good and bad in our lives through energy or as Medusa put it, forces of electricity (I like that wording). I read Quantum Enigma. I will admit, I went to see "What the Bleep" and was not to impressed with my interpretation of what they were presenting. This book gave me a believable format/theory to ruminate on and gain a better understanding of how energy and critical thinking can work together. This site is a good source of info. http://www.hyponoesis.org/ I enjoyed this article. http://www.ianthompson.org/papers/Th...ember_2002.pdf Look forward to reading more here. Good day! another good one I reread to help form interpretation http://www.rosado.net/pdf/Spirituality_SD_3.pdf Last edited by weatherboi; 12-07-2009 at 03:10 PM. Reason: had to add one more link

12-08-2009, 04:10 PM	#6
Apocalipstic Pink Confection How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Ma'am Relationship Status: Dating Myself Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Nashville Posts: 4,266 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 17,195 Thanked 11,362 Times in 2,838 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	When I study history I can understand why so many people were/are drawn to religion. Life is not fair, and for many I think that religion could say that even if you had 12 children die of Malaria and a drunken husband who beat you and so on, you could count on many crowns in heaven. When life is really harsh, it has to seem comforting to know that after death, things will be better than anyone alive can even imagine...Except, there is zero proof of heaven or hell, or that we go anywhere after death. I remember in 5th grade, kids in my class were laughing at the "ridiculous" things the Greeks and Romans believed religiously and I remember saying something about these myths not being very different than Bible stories. In fact, they all sounded like explanations for the unexplainable. The need to know, to be in control of one's future. Here and now is what counts. How we treat people today. That is all we have really. __________________

12-09-2009, 12:34 PM	#15
NJFemmie Senior Member How Do You Identify?: The original lime-twisted femme Preferred Pronoun?: I answer to most things, especially lesbian. Relationship Status: Still loving my Mare ;) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 4,683 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,343 Thanked 11,420 Times in 2,976 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	I am not an atheist, but I consider myself to be a free thinking and open minded recovering Catholic. I have and still incorporate Buddhist principals into my daily life, but there is a large part of me that would like to believe that something much bigger exists out there. I don't necessarily believe in God as the bible or religious practices would state (hence why I am no longer a practicing minister) - but I like to think there is at least a collective energy that drives and pushes us forward. In any case, I am always interested in learning new theories and beliefs - and think this is a great thread topic and look forward to some useful and educational information on here __________________

12-07-2009, 01:41 PM	#2
Medusa Mentally Delicious How Do You Identify?: Queer High Femme, thank you very much Preferred Pronoun?: Mme. Relationship Status: Married to JD. Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,446 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 5,995 Thanked 42,692 Times in 7,831 Posts Rep Power: 10000026	Hey AJ! I was glad to see you start this thread! A lot of these themes have been circling in my head of late. I, too, was raised in a Southern Baptist environment and this time of year always brings up memories for me of being taught that Christmas was a "Christian" holiday, having discussions with my mom about how "Santa Claus" worked for God, and seeing (in my own child's mind) greed and sloth take over in some areas of my family. I am also a non-theist at this point in my life and incorporate Buddhist principals into my way of being to feel balanced. I feel more peaceful in my life without the presence of a "God" than I ever did while attending church. I often speak of things that the "universe" provides but I think that for me, when I think of the "universe" it is less about an entity and more about all of those forces of electicity that we create as human beings. My path of late has brought me back around to wanting to expand my knowledge and thinking about the Quantum. I came across this book on amazon: "Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounters Consciousness by Bruce Rosenblum" and thought I might give it a read. Do you have any recommendations for interesting reads? I love how you characterize a "world view" without supernatural considerations. Can you talk more about what that looks like to you? Great thread!

12-08-2009, 04:23 PM	#7
Andrew, Jr. Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Me Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Unavailable Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Over the Rainbow in a House Posts: 5,072 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 16,004 Thanked 5,249 Times in 2,216 Posts Rep Power: 0	I am very open minded, and more of a naturalist than anything else. As for religious beliefs - I am Roman Catholic with a mix of Buddist principles I follow. I am involved in the paranormal, and have been for a number of years. I left organized religion for well over 20 some odd years, but when my older sister was diagnosed with skin cancer, I tried to bargain with God. I went back to Church, and hoped and prayed that my actions would save her life. She died on Oct. 16, 2008 at home with everyone by her side. I was the very last person to talk to her alive. She went into a coma, and then passed away less than an hour later. I will always treasure that 15 minutes I had with her. Now I have a more peaceful life than ever before. I do more volunteer work than I have before. I enjoy working at food banks, homeless shelters, and at a local hospice center. However, now that my sister died, I just cannot bring myself to go back to the hospice center. How I got involved with the paranormal is at the hospice center. See when the dying are transitioning to a new life, it is like a baby being born. It is a process. Unfortunately, some people die alone. And some people die with family surrounding them. For those who are skeptics, I just say this to them...go volunteer for just a day or a few hours at a hospice center. You will see things that you cannot explain. You will feel things that you never felt before. And you will experience life like you never have before. It changes everything you ever thought about or believed in. Same thing happened to me at NIH in Bethesda. I could walk around Building 10 - that is where some cancer patients go. Jo was on floor 8. However, when she was being taken for Pet Scans, Xrays, Blood Work, or whatever, I would have to walk around. In walking around I would see, feel, and hear things that were not very pleasant. In fact, I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy. I always say cancer sucks. And it does. I am not sure of what is worse, cancer or the treatments. Namaste, Andrew

12-08-2009, 11:27 PM	#8
MsDemeanor Member How Do You Identify?: queer stone femme Relationship Status: Happily married to MisterMeanor, the man of my dreams Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 703 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 165 Thanked 1,852 Times in 511 Posts Rep Power: 2698180	An Aj thread!!!! And me too damn busy right now to toss in my two cents worth!!!! I'll be back. You've all been warned.

12-09-2009, 10:15 AM	#10
Medusa Mentally Delicious How Do You Identify?: Queer High Femme, thank you very much Preferred Pronoun?: Mme. Relationship Status: Married to JD. Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,446 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 5,995 Thanked 42,692 Times in 7,831 Posts Rep Power: 10000026	An interesting article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert..._b_384515.html

12-09-2009, 10:41 AM	#11
Andrew, Jr. Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Me Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Unavailable Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Over the Rainbow in a House Posts: 5,072 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 16,004 Thanked 5,249 Times in 2,216 Posts Rep Power: 0	Dusa, Did you see on SyFy the attempt to show near death experiences? It was done at a hospital I believe in Europe (Germany I think it was at). The dr's placed signs up on the ceiling and on equipment in the ER and Critical Care Units to see if patients who were revived could show time travel, after life, and so on. It was fascinating. Years ago people laughed at people who were free thinkers and naturalists. Now, today, look at what we do. We fly into deep space, and fly back to earth on the same plane.

12-10-2009, 03:40 PM	#16
MsDemeanor Member How Do You Identify?: queer stone femme Relationship Status: Happily married to MisterMeanor, the man of my dreams Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 703 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 165 Thanked 1,852 Times in 511 Posts Rep Power: 2698180	I wonder what they mean by "Almighty God". Christian God, Muslim God, Tribal God? Would they consider Buddha to be a God? How about Goddesses? Is "God" gender-specific? The Parking Goddess - the only deity that exists as far as I am concerned - was very kind to me yesterday. Twice. And I have a witness to prove it. Is she "almighty" enough to pass their test? If they ever had to find a perfect parking space in a busy city on a regular basis, would they possibly reconsider their position on the Parking Goddess? Could I snark on all day about the high level of bullshit that is this unconstitutional law? You betcha. linkyloo

12-10-2009, 08:43 PM	#17
MsDemeanor Member How Do You Identify?: queer stone femme Relationship Status: Happily married to MisterMeanor, the man of my dreams Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 703 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 165 Thanked 1,852 Times in 511 Posts Rep Power: 2698180	Here's my view of religion and gods and faith and spirituality and that stuff. It's all phooey. Once upon a time, ancient man created gods to explain the things in nature that he couldn't understand. Eclipses, droughts, good and bad growing seasons, earthquakes, whatever. Well, now we've moved on to a point where humans can figure this stuff out. We haven't figured it all out yet, but we'll eventually get around to it. We don't need to pray to the earthquake god any more. When I see news reports of people killing each other because they are different religions, I think that it's tragic. It's so far beyond stupid that it can't see stupid in the rear view mirror. Fight over land or minerals or some such tangeble thing, but don't go around killing each other because you read from a different scripture or say your prayers a different way. How damn stupid. Organized religion, especially when I look at what it's done and is doing in this country, is evil. You can't call yourself an organization of compassion when you let millions suffer because you place more importance on cast-off embryos that could be used for stem cell research than you place on people who are here and alive and in pain and dieing. You can't call yourself an organization of compassion when you threaten to quit helping the poor in an area because that area wants to allow queers to marry. You can't call yourself an organization of compassion and then relentlessly harass my grandmother because she doesn't give you ten percent of her widows pension until you drive her and her entire family out of the church for good. The list goes on, but you get my drift. So much of it is not about faith or compassion or caring or any of the multitude of things it claims; it's about power over people, it's about politics and control, it's about money. Now, I know less that didly about a lot of religions, maybe there are a bunch that don't do evil stuff, but they aren't in the news so I'm not aware of what they are up to. I'm speaking about the ones that make headlines. Forcing one religion on everybody else is wrong wrong wrong and wrong. Okay, your particular faith doesn't believe in abortion and doesn't want government money to provide them with insurance policies. Well guess what, I'm not a part of your religion and your beliefs are not my beliefs and I paid my tax dollars in to that system just the same as everyone else, so if I want an abortion then STFU and let me use my damn insurance to pay for the procedure. Charity is fine and dandy, we should all do more of it, but making people listen to you preach to them while you feed them isn't charity, it's recruiting. If the point is really to help people, then just STFU and help. If someone's actually interested in your religion, they can always ask you about it. The infiltration of conservative and dominionist individuals in to our military and government scares the shit out of me. Solders are enlisting to go fight in the middle east because they think it's something biblical, the military chaplincy (is that the right word?) is being taken over by the religious right and far right; these folks are going to move up the chain of command and some day they'll be in charge. I'm not really looking forward to a future where our military is run by the religious rabid right, and it's headed that way. Put another republican in the White House (I'm assuming he/she would be a religious wing nut because those are the only kinds of republicans who seem to have any power these days), and we could all face martial law at the hands of nut jobs who think things like that the earth is 6,000 years old. We don't have to worry about progressive socialists taking over this country, the real issue is that we quite likely to be taken over by people who want to move us all back a century or five. I don't understand politicians like those in C Street and the Palins and other extremist wing nuts and how they can be supported and stay in office and stay in power. They don't have a conscience, they think they are better than everyone else, the rules don't apply and all that matters is them and their power and what they think that their interpretation of their god wants them to do. Even if its imprisioning and murdering people in Uganda simply for being gay. One only has to read a couple of chapters in to The Family to understand why all of these republicans who have been caught up in scandle lately don't think they've done anything wrong and don't think they should have to step down. They really and honestly believe that they are better and it's really all okay. I don't understand people who profess compassion and such and then argue in favor of things like murder. I often find myself in conversations about controversial topics where I'm the only atheist in the conversation and I'm also the most compassionate voice. The hypocrisy of posting in one thread that everyone should love and be compassionate to everyone and then posting in another thread that so-and-so should be executed makes my head explode. You can't have it both ways. I don't get faith or spirituality. I'd be lousy in a 12-step program because I totally don't understand the "higher power" thing (don't bother trying, others have and you won't get any father than they did, plus your attempts will just irritate me). I don't understand needing to seek some purpose. I wake up every day with plenty of purpose, my calendar is full of purpose. My bills need paid, my job needs done, my dog needs a walk, I have people and critters to love and people and critters that love me, and all of that fills my needs and my heart and my life just fine. And when I die, I'll be dead and I'll decay. There aren't virgins in heaven if you murder others in the name of some god, there's no pearly gates where you get a free pass from some god that it's okay that you fucked over people Mon-Sat because you went to church every Sunday and tithed your little ten percent. There's no great afterlife and nothing to look forward to. You die, you're dead, you rot, just like every other living thing on this planet. I do like the Christmas lights and decorations and prezzies and TV specials and some of the songs are pretty swell and Little Drummer Boy makes cry when it's done right (I don't know why), so that parts all cool and stuff, but it really bugs me that stores close on Easter. I also go along with a lot of the stuff that Aj said in post #5, especially about responsibility and motivation for how I treat others.

12-10-2009, 09:42 PM	#18
Andrew, Jr. Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Me Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Unavailable Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Over the Rainbow in a House Posts: 5,072 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 16,004 Thanked 5,249 Times in 2,216 Posts Rep Power: 0	MsDemeanor, I agree with some of your thinking. I think it is wrong to force your religious beliefs on anyone. I think that has to come from your own journey. Everyone has to take that on themself. I meditate, and pray. I try to get to that place where I have that inner joy/peace. I believe in helping others. I volunteer to feed the poor, donate clothes, tents, and blankets to the homeless, and when possible donate money to NIH for cancer research. I also donate money to CaringBridge in honor of my sister, JoAnn. I used to volunteer at a hospice center, but had to stop that after my sister died. It was too emotional for me. And it still is. It was pure devistation. I don't think my life will ever be the same again. As for your thinking about stem-cells...JoAnn had stem cell treatments. It failed. I wish more was done with stem-cells. It is our only chance of helping those who have skin cancer, and those who are burned with 3rd and 4th degree burns over their bodies. I read somewhere on the NIH website that Rockefeller Univ. in NYC and Children's Hospital in Boston got the ok to donate stem cells they have to NIH - by a federal grant of some sort. It is my hope and prayer that someone will be saved by this and not have to endure the devistation that I have had to endure. Namaste, Andrew

12-10-2009, 10:08 PM	#19
MsDemeanor Member How Do You Identify?: queer stone femme Relationship Status: Happily married to MisterMeanor, the man of my dreams Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 703 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 165 Thanked 1,852 Times in 511 Posts Rep Power: 2698180	Basic questions that I can't get past. 1) If there were really a god, wouldn't there be A God, one god, a singular god? 2) If there were really a god and this god provided a text, wouldn't there be A Text, one single bible or whatever you want to call it? Instead, there's a bunch of different gods and bunch of different texts and stuff for each religion that prays to each of these gods, and sometimes a single religion will even have a bunch of different texts within that one religion and some people will pick this one and some will pick that one and stuff. and 3) If there were really a god, and kings and other folks went around claiming that the voices in their heads were god telling them to rewrite the texts, wouldn't that god be kinda pissed? Nowadays, they don't even bother claiming to hear voices (which, you know, if your not a king or some church higher-up and you claim to hear voices telling you to do things, you tend to get diagnosed with some mental condition). I read recently about some guys that have decided that their bible is too liberal. They've pretty much said that they are re-writing because it doesn't fit with their thinking. Word of God? I think not.

12-11-2009, 04:38 AM	#20
Andrew, Jr. Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Me Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Unavailable Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Over the Rainbow in a House Posts: 5,072 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 16,004 Thanked 5,249 Times in 2,216 Posts Rep Power: 0	MsDemeanor, This is just my thoughts on your above post. There is just one higher power or God/Godess - however you want to acknowledge it. God has no gender because God is a spirit broken down into 3 parts Father, Son, & Holy Ghost (Christain perspective). God gave the Christain's the Ten Commandments to follow. And that is pretty much ignored in my opinion. God is love. Life is full of chaos because of our free will. If people were more loving, kind, and peaceful we would not have wars, or children going to bed without heat or food. People would reach out and take care of each other. This is not the kind of life I imagine God wanted for us to have. Just like earth. We are slowly destroying mother earth by what we are doing to it. Greed, lack of respect, chaos, and a lack of love. As for the different Bible's, etc. Some people pray to God differently. As some people learn differently. They may be differently written, but in the end mean the very same thing. It is like a children's Bible vs. an adult Bible vs. a visual Bible. Some are written by different perspectives. One may be written by someone living now vs. a follower of Christ. It is interpretation. Kings and queens may rule countries, but I am not sure I understand this part of your post.