Open Letter: Dear Femme

evolveme · 12-09-2009, 04:33 PM

I'm taking this to everyone.

I see what I feel to be some interesting things happening here from a sociological perspective. I created a thread in which we could explore the ways in which feminine people are sublimated by the overall masculine-over nature of our communities, but I also had an eye toward the way in which we permit that subjection. How we, femme people, propagate it, as it were.

On one level, the conversation I've been having with Bit has been frustrating for me (not Bit, just the convo). I only meant to show that a butch person cannot and should not answer for us a question that can only be answered by us. This isn't personal, it is necessary. I saw Kosmo rewording Blush's question in such a way as to make it only answerable by femmes, and for me, this was an opportunity to speak to my point from the OP.

On another level, this conversation has been an important one because of what it might have revealed, and how it allows us to engage.

When we're in discussions over trans topics, I know that I hear transfolks saying, "Cispeople cannot tell us what we need to do to be understood/seen/etc. In order to be good allies, they need to listen."

I know that in the female-id'd butch thread, if any other id'd individual were to make a suggestion to them about them, they'd have a great deal to say to that poster. I think they have that right.

The bottom line here is that I want us to be as fiercely protective of ourselves as we have always tended to be of others.

It keeps coming up that perhaps I should have shut down this conversation to certain other individuals. It is not my intention to show anyone the door. I am not going to ask anyone to stay out of this conversation. I desire participation. I love every kind of voice there is. Bring the variation. But I will speak to masculine-centrism where I see it, and to old habits when they reflect masculine-over thinking. I believe there has been masculine-over thinking evident in this thread, and not just by masculine people. It's super important to me that we all look at this, at ourselves and one another and consider this syndrome.

Right now:

I want to know what the rest of you are seeing.

I want to know if all of you would prefer to hear the voices of everyone here (should they choose to participate), or only femme voices.

A lot of good questions about how we participate in masculine-centrism were skipped over pages ago. I hope more of you will think about those questions and answer them.

I've been thinking about those questions and will try to come back with some answers.

The_Lady_Snow · 12-09-2009, 05:01 PM

*I* Snow a Femme person type, would love to have femme's speak for themselves and NOT take a step back and let or allow the butch talk on their behalf.. For me and this is just me- I don't think and I could be wrong that any butch can honestly speak for me, about me, and about what I experience...

I could be wrong though

blush · 12-09-2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

*I* Snow a Femme person type, would love to have femme's speak for themselves and NOT take a step back and let or allow the butch talk on their behalf.. For me and this is just me- I don't think and I could be wrong that any butch can honestly speak for me, about me, and about what I experience...

I could be wrong though

Totally agree.

I certainly don't mind hearing from the "others," but this needs to be a femme-based space. As I said before, I'm mildly curious if these conversations the femmes are having are changing behaviors or attitudes with the "others," but I'm much more curious about our experiences and lives.

Bit, no worries! I re-read my post, and I wasn't clear.

KayCee · 12-10-2009, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

*I* Snow a Femme person type, would love to have femme's speak for themselves and NOT take a step back and let or allow the butch talk on their behalf.. For me and this is just me- I don't think and I could be wrong that any butch can honestly speak for me, about me, and about what I experience...

I could be wrong though

The problem is IMO that we start asking in the first place...femme asks a question..butch answers..

..if we allow it..is another point!

The_Lady_Snow · 12-10-2009, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kat6071

The problem is IMO that we start asking in the first place...femme asks a question..butch answers..

..if we allow it..is another point!

I was wondering if you could clarify I am having a hard time getting this..

Are you saying that femme's should not ask questions?

Sorry it's one of those morning where my brain is just not functioning..

Isadora · 12-10-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kat6071

The problem is IMO that we start asking in the first place...femme asks a question..butch answers..

..if we allow it..is another point!

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I was wondering if you could clarify I am having a hard time getting this..

Are you saying that femme's should not ask questions?

Sorry it's one of those morning where my brain is just not functioning..

I don't get it either. Are you saying that only butches should answer femme questions? Or what Snow said? Or am I just...
dazed and confused, too.

Bit · 12-10-2009, 02:45 PM

Snow, Isa, if I understand right, Kat is saying that we shouldn't be asking the Butches to answer questions about us in this thread.

SuperFemme · 12-10-2009, 03:36 PM

Right. So do we need to clarify that in a clearly Femme id'd space? It seems tiresome to me to have to have a disclaimer of "only femmes answer me please".

KayCee · 12-10-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bit

Snow, Isa, if I understand right, Kat is saying that we shouldn't be asking the Butches to answer questions about us in this thread.

Thanks Bit!

Snow, Isa, I was actually quoting you, Snow and I totally agree with you. We need to speak up for ourselves and not let anyone answer for us..no matter who it is. It's not about femme's asking questions, .. it's about letting butches answer for or about us.. We don't need to question ourselves at all....that's what I meant.

sorry for confusion...

12-09-2009, 04:33 PM	#1
evolveme Member How Do You Identify?: honeysuckle venom Preferred Pronoun?: a pistol and a sugar cane Relationship Status: I promise to aid and abet Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: in between poems where ceilings are floors and joe ghost floats achromatic toward day Posts: 514 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 229 Thanked 735 Times in 228 Posts Rep Power: 503699	I'm taking this to everyone. I see what I feel to be some interesting things happening here from a sociological perspective. I created a thread in which we could explore the ways in which feminine people are sublimated by the overall masculine-over nature of our communities, but I also had an eye toward the way in which we permit that subjection. How we, femme people, propagate it, as it were. On one level, the conversation I've been having with Bit has been frustrating for me (not Bit, just the convo). I only meant to show that a butch person cannot and should not answer for us a question that can only be answered by us. This isn't personal, it is necessary. I saw Kosmo rewording Blush's question in such a way as to make it only answerable by femmes, and for me, this was an opportunity to speak to my point from the OP. On another level, this conversation has been an important one because of what it might have revealed, and how it allows us to engage. When we're in discussions over trans topics, I know that I hear transfolks saying, "Cispeople cannot tell us what we need to do to be understood/seen/etc. In order to be good allies, they need to listen." I know that in the female-id'd butch thread, if any other id'd individual were to make a suggestion to them about them, they'd have a great deal to say to that poster. I think they have that right. The bottom line here is that I want us to be as fiercely protective of ourselves as we have always tended to be of others. It keeps coming up that perhaps I should have shut down this conversation to certain other individuals. It is not my intention to show anyone the door. I am not going to ask anyone to stay out of this conversation. I desire participation. I love every kind of voice there is. Bring the variation. But I will speak to masculine-centrism where I see it, and to old habits when they reflect masculine-over thinking. I believe there has been masculine-over thinking evident in this thread, and not just by masculine people. It's super important to me that we all look at this, at ourselves and one another and consider this syndrome. Right now: I want to know what the rest of you are seeing. I want to know if all of you would prefer to hear the voices of everyone here (should they choose to participate), or only femme voices. A lot of good questions about how we participate in masculine-centrism were skipped over pages ago. I hope more of you will think about those questions and answer them. I've been thinking about those questions and will try to come back with some answers. __________________ Class, race, sexuality, gender and all other categories by which we categorize and dismiss each other need to be excavated from the inside. - Dorothy Allison

12-09-2009, 05:01 PM	#2
The_Lady_Snow MILLION $$$ PUSSY How Do You Identify?: Kinky, Raw, Perverted, Uber Queer Alpha Femme Preferred Pronoun?: Iconic Ms. Relationship Status: Keeper of 3, only one has the map to my freckles Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: La Reina del Sur Posts: 22,488 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 32,231 Thanked 80,076 Times in 15,669 Posts Rep Power: 21474875	I Snow a Femme person type, would love to have femme's speak for themselves and NOT take a step back and let or allow the butch talk on their behalf.. For me and this is just me- I don't think and I could be wrong that any butch can honestly speak for me, about me, and about what I experience... I could be wrong though

12-10-2009, 02:45 PM	#7
Bit Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Stonefemme Relationship Status: married to Gryph Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Wichita, KS Posts: 2,177 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,126 Thanked 3,770 Times in 1,264 Posts Rep Power: 10778871	Snow, Isa, if I understand right, Kat is saying that we shouldn't be asking the Butches to answer questions about us in this thread.

12-10-2009, 03:36 PM	#8
SuperFemme Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 10/24/2010 Preferred Pronoun?: She. Relationship Status: Married (one of 18,000) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atascadero, CA Posts: 4,933 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,309 Thanked 7,108 Times in 2,327 Posts Rep Power: 0	Right. So do we need to clarify that in a clearly Femme id'd space? It seems tiresome to me to have to have a disclaimer of "only femmes answer me please".