Exclusion: A Women's Issue?

[QueenofQueens]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I guess my point is that some things that are said about my particular sub group I have seen in other threads that are meant to be for other sub groups. These things, I believe are well intentioned, but leave me feeling like there are now assumptions about me simply because a few people in my sub group are jerks. I don't feel its appropriate for me to speak up in these threads, cause they are not for me. Yet, I feel like some very unfair things are being said that reflect negatively on me, just on the basis of my belonging to my sub group.

Now I don't tend to report a post unless something egregious has been said, something really awful. I don't report other posts with shades of grey because I don't think that is fair, and a lot of good people with good intentions say things sometimes that fall flat. I usually go into the thread and ask them to clarify what they truly mean. But in the case of threads that aren't for my sub group, I can't do that, otherwise I am perceived to be violating someone's space. I don't want to violate anything. And I refuse to report a post that is in that grey area, either. So I guess a pm to the OP is all I can do, but then what I find to be unfair in the thread goes unanswered in the thread, and I guess there's nothing I can do about that.

I totally understand the fears you're expressing. I get that as someone who doesn't want to contribute to the oppression or silencing of another group, you don't want to be characterized as one who would. It's difficult to refrain from feeling the need to defend yourself when things are said in ignorance and frustration.
That said, I believe, that it is possible for different groups of people to maintain safe space in order to share mutual, lived, experience and still build bridges with their allies.
To me, wanting to retain a little "personal" space within a bigger community is not about exclusion. I think it's about folks like you bearing witness to your experiences, without interruption, so that you have the fortitude and patience to build better bridges (and just be able to live) outside of that safe space.
I know that as an artist, I crave the company and insight of other artists sometimes. Sometimes I want to have a conversation about an issue I'm dealing with as an artist with other people who "get it" sans background story or explanations. This doesn't exclude the fact that I still love and need my non-artist patrons, allies, and friends.
I think the same is true of gender identities.
While I know it can be hard to feel as though you're "sitting on your hands", I think we can all work to be better allies to those who identify differently than we do. Repping people, sending supportive p.m.s, starting threads that extend an effort to engage in thoughtful dialogue, are all powerful, though seemingly small ways, to let people know that they've been heard and that you respect their self expression. Vis a vis, consistently being a good ally, and proceeding from a place of respect and kindness can have a huge impact on changing the way people think about you and people like you. The good ones (and most are at heart) always come around and that creates community.

I think this site can provide an extremely positive atmosphere of mutual respect that will afford all of us a voice if we just let ourselves, and each other, be heard.

[Words]

I started a thread for submissives, making it very clear that that was what it was. Although it's not that active, submissives are posting, including several newly out submissives who consider it a safe enough space to post. The thread is therefore, in my opinion, a positive thread.

So, as the thread starter, what would I do if someone started using our safe space as an opportunity to take obvious pot shots at other groups who weren't in a position - because of the exclusive nature of the thread - to respond? Easy. I'd tell them it's not appropriate because safe, to me, implies maintaining a certain level of common decency, which includes not attacking -remember, I'm talking about extreme accusations here - folks who aren't in a position to defend themselves. And if that didn't work? I'd contact a. a mod., b. the admin., or c. the forum ambassador, depending on the scope of their involvement in individual threads, and ask them to intervene. What I wouldn't do is allow the thread to be de-railed by a pissing match.

Words

[Jess]

Wow, I started this discussion just before turning in for the night and wake up to see a great conversation happening! Thanks everyone, for getting my intention!

Atomic, I def hear your point and as a couple of folks have already mentioned, there are ways to find your answers to a statement made without derailing or disrespecting the safe space another sub-group has created. Sending a respectful PM to the person who made the statement is not only a good way to get a direct answer without making that person feel "put on the spot" for something that could easily be a poor choice of words, but it could also result in making a new ally. There is that hope!

In my personal experience, I have entered a space or two that weren't for "my" identification ( yet that was not stated) and made comments I felt innocuous and/or supportive and came to find out later that I should have probably never gone there. Had the thread clearly stated, this thread is for _________, I would have remained a silent observer.

I have watched some threads for specific subgroups grapple with issues stemming from other subgroups ( as you, Atomic are speaking concern with), and have watched them "police" themselves perfectly well. I think when allowed to, most folks will eventually do the "right thing", even though the process my be difficult. They end up teaching and "hearing" one another better regarding the "tough issues", as they are coming from more similar space to have those discussions.

Here is an example and I hope no one will take this in any way other than it is intended, an "example".

A thread in the Femme Zone, brought up the topic of male- centric or masculine- centric behavior to discuss. My thought... if they are trying to discuss how it impacts their lives, they are not going to feel safe doing so if male or masculine identified persons start coming in and commenting.

While the group ( or set of characteristics ) may hit home with me, it is not MY place to insert my comments there. I can instead A) write members who posted comments I wish to have clarified , B) start a discussion within MY group about how we may or may not be perceived C) start a discussion in an "open" space ( such as gender/ community) to discuss how we as a larger community view the issue or D) deal with it on my own.

My point in opening up this discussion is to help ( hopefully) further the important discussions by reminding folks it really is "OK" to ask or demand your private spaces. I don't think we need to fear the "he man womans hater club" . The little rascals have grown up, and more often than not totally amaze me in their ability to work through situations that are "tough" with care, concern and openness .

Thanks again for everyone who took the time to read and/or think about this.

Jess

[apretty]

exclusion/inclusion isn't a woman's issue.

'inclusion' is a human issue and 'exclusion' is all about perception--if someone feels 'entitled' to enter a space meant for like-minded/bodied/spirited-"others" it really speaks to that person's sense of *entitlement* and/or lack of respect/awareness.

in femme-zone space, where the participants are attempting to *temporarily* remove the ever-present *butch* from the butch-and-femme, in an attempt to see/discuss/nuture/admire/tend to all that is FEMME, i do *not* feel unsafe by masculine participation rather, i am suspect of that masculine person's ability to participate in any effective manner and will wonder of that masculine-person's motivation--unless he/she does offer some amazing insight (and it really better be fucking amazing) because yes, masculine-energy in a femme-intended space alters the discussion, and frequently demonstrates that which we're intending to discuss. (...and this is something to consider because i imagine that no one wants to be "the bad example" )

[Jess]

Originally Posted by apretty

exclusion/inclusion isn't a woman's issue.

'inclusion' is a human issue and 'exclusion' is all about perception--if someone feels 'entitled' to enter a space meant for like-minded/bodied/spirited-"others" it really speaks to that person's sense of *entitlement* and/or lack of respect/awareness.

in femme-zone space, where the participants are attempting to *temporarily* remove the ever-present *butch* from the butch-and-femme, in an attempt to see/discuss/nuture/admire/tend to all that is FEMME, i do *not* feel unsafe by masculine participation rather, i am suspect of that masculine person's ability to participate in any effective manner and will wonder of that masculine-person's motivation--unless he/she does offer some amazing insight (and it really better be fucking amazing) because yes, masculine-energy in a femme-intended space alters the discussion, and frequently demonstrates that which we're intending to discuss. (...and this is something to consider because i imagine that no one wants to be "the bad example" )

I agree in that it is "human issue", wholeheartedly. I also sense that it is primarily women ( past, present or future) who are or seem to be more willing to share their space. Or maybe more accurately, less willing to demand it.

As a general reader perusing a website that has areas designated for "femmes" or "butches" or "trans" , what have you, I have always assumed the space was still open to "others" and welcomed input from said "others". For me, it is much clearer when it is stated, with no room for misinterpretation. Just keeps things cleaner for me anyway.

Thank you apretty.

[blush]

Originally Posted by apretty

exclusion/inclusion isn't a woman's issue.

'inclusion' is a human issue and 'exclusion' is all about perception--if someone feels 'entitled' to enter a space meant for like-minded/bodied/spirited-"others" it really speaks to that person's sense of *entitlement* and/or lack of respect/awareness.

in femme-zone space, where the participants are attempting to *temporarily* remove the ever-present *butch* from the butch-and-femme, in an attempt to see/discuss/nuture/admire/tend to all that is FEMME, i do *not* feel unsafe by masculine participation rather, i am suspect of that masculine person's ability to participate in any effective manner and will wonder of that masculine-person's motivation--unless he/she does offer some amazing insight (and it really better be fucking amazing) because yes, masculine-energy in a femme-intended space alters the discussion, and frequently demonstrates that which we're intending to discuss. (...and this is something to consider because i imagine that no one wants to be "the bad example" )

I think I love you.