Forgiveness

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I don't feel you are less. If that matters. I have similar feelings about things in my life. I don't feel I am bitter or carrying any bad emotions. I see forgiveness more for those I love. If someone is not important to me then I don't see the need to forgive them. It sort of makes the act they are guilty of more important than it should be. And apologies are hollow in some situations. I got the apology I thought I wanted and it left me cold inside. Nothing healed. What healed me was relinquishing the gulit I felt for having been chosen by the man who hurt me. It was more about forgiving myself.

Great point!

If I don't love someone, then forgiveness is kind of empty.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Great point!

If I don't love someone, then forgiveness is kind of empty.

Part of me disagrees with this (but, I certainly get the big difference between loving someone). For me, forgiveness is linked to my spiritual balance. Therefore, keeping any of the negative energy that coulod keep me from letting go of ugly bitterness which hurts me internally (this part has nothing to do with the other person), then it best for me to let go of that energy. That is not empty to me and might be freeing in ways that are helpful.

I guess the main thing for me is about not carrying around anything that just continues to impact with my own growth. That is when I have felt that I continue to have the negative that my abuser or someone that treated me unfairly had over me. Hanging its ugly head still. I want to look someone in the eyes and say you have no effect over me anymore, period!

I don't know, so much of the "static" in life now is just not worth my dealing with anymore. A gift of aging! A gift of having many tough things happen that I just can't allow to overtake me because I know the consequences to myself are far too high.

The main thin with forgiveness for me is the realization that is has nothing to do with rendering someone else free of of their abusive or unfair behavior. It has everything to do with my living my life more positively.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Part of me disagrees with this (but, I certainly get the big difference between loving someone). For me, forgiveness is linked to my spiritual balance. Therefore, keeping any of the negative energy that could keep me from letting go of ugly bitterness which hurts me internally (this part has nothing to do with the other person), then it best for me to let go of that energy. That is not empty to me and might be freeing in ways that are helpful.

I guess the main thing for me is about not carrying around anything that just continues to impact with my own growth. That is when I have felt that I continue to have the negative that my abuser or someone that treated me unfairly had over me. Hanging its ugly head still. I want to look someone in the eyes and say you have no effect over me anymore, period!

I don't know, so much of the "static" in life now is just not worth my dealing with anymore. A gift of aging! A gift of having many tough things happen that I just can't allow to overtake me because I know the consequences to myself are far too high.

The main thin with forgiveness for me is the realization that is has nothing to do with rendering someone else free of of their abusive or unfair behavior. It has everything to do with my living my life more positively.

Good point. Maybe it would have been better to say that unless I love a person I don't care enough to hold bitterness or to need to forgive.

Do you think that it is important to look someone in the eye and tell them they have no hold anymore? This is problematic for me, because the person who abused me is dead.

I am trying to understand and get past my anger for the people who placed me in that vulnerable position and those who knew what was going on and did nothing to help me. I have reached the point where I am just profoundly sad rather than angry.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Part of me disagrees with this (but, I certainly get the big difference between loving someone). For me, forgiveness is linked to my spiritual balance. Therefore, keeping any of the negative energy that coulod keep me from letting go of ugly bitterness which hurts me internally (this part has nothing to do with the other person), then it best for me to let go of that energy. That is not empty to me and might be freeing in ways that are helpful.

I guess the main thing for me is about not carrying around anything that just continues to impact with my own growth. That is when I have felt that I continue to have the negative that my abuser or someone that treated me unfairly had over me. Hanging its ugly head still. I want to look someone in the eyes and say you have no effect over me anymore, period!

I don't know, so much of the "static" in life now is just not worth my dealing with anymore. A gift of aging! A gift of having many tough things happen that I just can't allow to overtake me because I know the consequences to myself are far too high.

The main thin with forgiveness for me is the realization that is has nothing to do with rendering someone else free of of their abusive or unfair behavior. It has everything to do with my living my life more positively.

You have articulated this so beautifully. I get a bit emotional when I think about it and try to put it into words that make any sense.

[Isadora]

See and here is my issue. I fail to see not forgiving as negative. As out of balance. As stopping growth. I think I am a wonderfully amazing positive person. This is hurting me too much, I am going to bow out of this.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Isadora

See and here is my issue. I fail to see not forgiving as negative. As out of balance. As stopping growth. I think I am a wonderfully amazing positive person. This is hurting me too much, I am going to bow out of this.

Isadora please take care of yourself. I do not see not forgiving as bad either. I think we might have a different take on it than others. I do know that forgiveness is a big part of my spiritual practice. I think there is no "right" way. Please don't take others ways of doing it as any comment on yours. I don't. And even if it is, they aren't living my life.

[IrishGrrl]

Originally Posted by Isadora

See and here is my issue. I fail to see not forgiving as negative. As out of balance. As stopping growth. I think I am a wonderfully amazing positive person. This is hurting me too much, I am going to bow out of this.

Isa, I"m with you on your feelings. I dont really see non forgivness as a negative either. I think there CAN be times when it will negativly impact you, but for me, my anger, rage, sadness, outrage has also spurred me on to great things. In a way it is the fire that feeds me at times. I dont think I would have survived without it, and it's now my dear close ally and friend, who is always there to give me strength when I dont feel I have any left.
The way I balance it all is, that I forgive what I can, and make no excuses or feel an ounce of guilt for what I cannot. Forgiveness is personal for me, and a private thing. I do not judge others on thier abilities to forgive or not. And I cant stand and wont listen long to someone preaching to me how I "NEED" to forgive.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Isadora

See and here is my issue. I fail to see not forgiving as negative. As out of balance. As stopping growth. I think I am a wonderfully amazing positive person. This is hurting me too much, I am going to bow out of this.

It doesn't stop YOUR growth. It hinders mine. I sure didn't mean to imply that what gives me balance is what is true for everyone. Actually, I don't see this with anyone's post here.

Although, sometimes it is a good idea to make it clear that we are speaking about our own experiences and goals- and not placing ideas on others. I hope you remain here because you always contribute so much to discussions.

[T4Texas]

Forgivness is something we have to come to terms with in our inner self. It is always dependent on your personal circumstances as for some people the reasons are different or more or less painful. I do not think its a negative to not want to embrace something that you haven't made your peace with yet, or may never make your peace with because the hurt is too great. I am a great believer in moving forward in life from the things that cause you harm or pain. But, that said, I struggle with forgiveness because I have a tendency to feel vindictive if I have been hurt badly or feel wronged by someone. That vindictiveness, I know is wrong and a huge part of my struggle in life has been to eliminate that from my personality. As a result, forgiveness comes slowly to me, but that does not mean it won't eventually come. There are some people I have wiped out of my life forever because the hurt was too great and the situation was not repairable. There are many things I have said to people that I wish I could have taken back. I think there are times when we have to go to those extremes in order to be able to move forward. But even though I've done those things, I was still always sad about the loss, the finality of making that decision and the knowledge that even if you forgive, your relationship with that person will never truly be the same because now its tainted in some way. As human beings, we do a lot of things to each other that are abusive, passive agressive, and ultimately unforgivable. I feel as an individual, you must move forward and put yourself in a place where you can heal and if for you that means either forgiving or not forgiving, then you must choose what you think will best serve that end.

[Nat]

I ran across this today - thought I'd share:

"There are three aspects to the Buddhist idea of patience: patience-persistence, patience-under-insult and acceptance-of-truth.

The fourth is forgiveness...which in the Buddhist context is based more on Karma - the causal chain that's put into effect by your behavior. With karma, there is no external force or person or being that can intervene with your karma. There's nobody else responsible for your karma but you. So the idea of forgiveness of someone else is not as important as it is for you to do your own work.

What forgiveness is really tied to in this context is releasing our anger we have toward others.

When I forgive you, I am no longer going to hold anger toward you. I can't free you from your karma, you're still going to have to work this out for yourself in some way, but you know now I'm a safe person for you. I'm no longer going to hold my anger against you and make things difficult.

One of the reason's it's so powerful to release our anger toward other people is that a healthy way to change the course of our own karma is to not hold onto anger."

Gil Fronsdal, Audio Dharma podcast

[Chancie]

I forgive you.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Nat

I ran across this today - thought I'd share:

"There are three aspects to the Buddhist idea of patience: patience-persistence, patience-under-insult and acceptance-of-truth.

The fourth is forgiveness...which in the Buddhist context is based more on Karma - the causal chain that's put into effect by your behavior. With karma, there is no external force or person or being that can intervene with your karma. There's nobody else responsible for your karma but you. So the idea of forgiveness of someone else is not as important as it is for you to do your own work. What forgiveness is really tied to in this context is releasing our anger we have toward others.

When I forgive you, I am no longer going to hold anger toward you. I can't free you from your karma, you're still going to have to work this out for yourself in some way, but you know now I'm a safe person for you. I'm no longer going to hold my anger against you and make things difficult.

One of the reason's it's so powerful to release our anger toward other people is that a healthy way to change the course of our own karma is to not hold onto anger."

Gil Fronsdal, Audio Dharma podcast

This way of thinking about my own work and forgiveness has always won out internally. I have to take responsibility for working through anger and hurt. Until then, I can't possibly meaningfully attempt to process with someone else.

Sometimes I wish I could do this more efficiently when I know that want to work through something with someone else that although we have had a rift, I want to make amends.

I have had far too many people I cared about die (family & friends) to not realize that my moving through my faulty reasoning slowly has caused me to miss the opportunity to experience the gift forgiveness can be.

[Laerkin]

Wonderfully put and very much where I stand on the issue. I've seen some other very interesting posts that I'll need to mull over.

I would like to say that I certainly don't think my way is the only/best/"right" way. But forgiveness and growth and experience are tremendously personal. Some posts are resonating deeply for me and some posts are intriguing and thought-provoking because of how different they are from my personal experiences.

AtLastHome, I totally agree that forgiveness is a spiritual balance for me. Moving past negative energy and letting go allow me a freedom to grow and develop because of something challenging or hurtful.

As you said, this has everything to do with living a positive life with a healthy outlook (healthy meaning good for me and my path). It's not about the other person. They have their own things to figure out and I don't have a hand in that process.

Forgiveness, to me, is when I'm standing at a crossroads. Neither path is right or wrong, but one leads to emotional release and one leads to holding onto something (so I can obsess over it, or file it away for later, or learn from it, etc). When I choose to release it (and it might be something small and that crossroad lasted one millisecond or it might be something big and it's taken me months or years to reach the crossroads), it's no longer something I focus on or think about and I shift my energy towards something new.

I really am learning a lot from all of you. The various definitions, perspectives, and thoughts are really deep and personal and I'm seeing things through others eyes. Powerful stuff.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Part of me disagrees with this (but, I certainly get the big difference between loving someone). For me, forgiveness is linked to my spiritual balance. Therefore, keeping any of the negative energy that coulod keep me from letting go of ugly bitterness which hurts me internally (this part has nothing to do with the other person), then it best for me to let go of that energy. That is not empty to me and might be freeing in ways that are helpful.

I guess the main thing for me is about not carrying around anything that just continues to impact with my own growth. That is when I have felt that I continue to have the negative that my abuser or someone that treated me unfairly had over me. Hanging its ugly head still. I want to look someone in the eyes and say you have no effect over me anymore, period!

I don't know, so much of the "static" in life now is just not worth my dealing with anymore. A gift of aging! A gift of having many tough things happen that I just can't allow to overtake me because I know the consequences to myself are far too high.

The main thing with forgiveness for me is the realization that is has nothing to do with rendering someone else free of of their abusive or unfair behavior. It has everything to do with my living my life more positively.