Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Random]

If I am out of line.. then please let me know..

Cause this has been on my mind since i started reading this thread.

I want to talk about the femme experience. I want to talk about what it means to other femmes.

Since I started reading this.. There is about five pages dedicated to talking about our partners. Is that all there is to us? Is all we are between our legs and who we partner with? Can Femme's not have a discussion without bringing butches, cis-guys, transmen into it? I have been reading the butch thread and guess what? we arn't the focus...

Am I wrong? Am I just seeing this because it's something I have to fight against all the time.. Internally.. Once I am partnered, I fight against becoming a two headed monster.. With my partner's head being the biggest and most predominate..

If I am out of line, or having tunnel vision, please let me know... Right now I am in transition.. Trying to be more than Mother, more than Partner... And it's hard as fuck. For me.. I have an image of what femme is stuck in my mind.. and that is sure as hell not me.. Unlearning this programming is so very important...

I'm not the donna reed, suzi homemaker, dress up doll that I see in my head.. I'm not some sweet submissive... I'm not a woman who's world revolves around her partner..But that's what is in my head... That is what I've allowed to be planted there.. If I am not that.. then I couldn't be femme, I'm not *enough* That is what I am trying to reprogram..

[Bit]

Cyn, we can talk about that image in your head---I struggled hard with it too, and I'm willing to bet all kinds of posters in this thread have dealt with it--but for right now I really need to answer Julie, because this goes to who she and I are, both as Femmes and as members of the community. Forgive me this post on it please?

Originally Posted by evolveme

Although I understand why you draw a distinction for transmen in this (because to queer a transman without consent might be invalidating and erasing and thereby a transphobic act), it’s still problematic for me because to set him aside as a ‘special class’ from everyone else is to say:
*I hold you with kid gloves because you really aren’t like everyone else*.
*Your self-determined heterosexuality is more special/different than a cis-sexed male’s and so I’m going to protect you.*

Straight up, Julie: I do NOT sleep with biomales. Not ever, not under any circumstances. (Made that mistake once, done with it forever.) I only included them in the hypothetical example because you did, and I was trying to answer you in kind.

I am Queer. For me, that means I do not sleep with straight men.

Would I make an exception for a Straight-Identified Transman if I fell in love with him? Yes. But it would BE an exception and he would HAVE TO accept me as a Queer both in my sexuality and in my community for us to have a healthy relationship.

Most of the Straight-Identified Transmen I have known didn't want to do that. That's completely understandable; I tried to change who I was for a couple of them, I tried to force myself to be straight and it didn't work--so why should I expect them to try to not be straight?

Queer-Identified Transmen, on the other hand, are my cuppa tea. Neither of us has to change, just as when I am with a Butch, neither of us has to change. We are both Queer together, and that is as it should be for my good mental health (and presumably for theirs too!).

I am not Pansexual, but Transensual... I define that to mean that I am comfortable in all ways including sexually with Transgendered Butches (for example, the ones who are Third Gender, Two Spirit, or Gender Queer) and Queer Transsexual Men.

About the kid leather gloves... There is an early stage of transition that is common to many Straight-Identified Transmen where they have an intense need to "Straighten" the Femme they are with because they need to see themselves as completely Straight. When that stage hits--I call it a stage because I've seen many Transmen come through it and relax considerably, afterwards--then a Femme cannot win for losing unless she is TRULY happy about sleeping with biomales, because nothing less will do to prove to the Transman that he is not "different."

Well, hello. MY being Straight (or not) does not prove anything about someone else's identity. And straight up--no pun intended--a Transman IS different. I happen to like the difference; most of the Transmen that I have known deplored the difference. Given those opposing attitudes, supporting them can be fraught with difficulties, and the only way I have found effective in dealing with those difficulties is kid leather gloves.

Does that mean I think Transmen are weak? Not no, HELL no. Transmen are some of the strongest beings on the planet. They just happen to bear really heavy burdens that call for extra consideration.

They'd treat me with the same gentleness and consideration if I needed it. Many of them have over the years.

Originally Posted by evolveme

And because, as I said earlier, I don’t want it done to me, I will not do it to ("queer by fucking") anyone else.

You CANNOT.

It is not possible for anyone to "make" someone else Queer.

I think you must have missed my last post on it, where I said that I know I cannot make anyone else Queer, that it is already inside them--or not. June and I were talking about the stereotype that equates sexual power with men, and thereby with Butches---and refuses it to women and thereby Femmes. We were talking about the wall she slammed into when she claimed that sexual power even in a discussion, even as a stereotype.

It is absolutely impossible to MAKE someone else be Queer.

Or Straight.

It's just not ever gonna happen.

,
Cath

[blush]

Originally Posted by Ms Cyn

If I am out of line.. then please let me know..

Cause this has been on my mind since i started reading this thread.

I want to talk about the femme experience. I want to talk about what it means to other femmes.

Since I started reading this.. There is about five pages dedicated to talking about our partners. Is that all there is to us? Is all we are between our legs and who we partner with? Can Femme's not have a discussion without bringing butches, cis-guys, transmen into it? I have been reading the butch thread and guess what? we arn't the focus...

I was thinking the very same thing. Why is it that we are most articulate about our relationships and our partners?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Ms Cyn

I want to talk about the femme experience. I want to talk about what it means to other femmes.

[snip]
I'm not the donna reed, suzi homemaker, dress up doll that I see in my head.. I'm not some sweet submissive... I'm not a woman who's world revolves around her partner..But that's what is in my head... That is what I've allowed to be planted there.. If I am not that.. then I couldn't be femme, I'm not *enough* That is what I am trying to reprogram..

I get so wrapped up in the unwrapping
That I sometimes forget the box
If I am a gift to myself--femme
What is under the ribbons, the bows--
The carefully chosen wrapping--
Each piece of me someone else's
Or are all the parts of those--me whole?

I couldn't write that out in regular sentences and I apologize. It's how I communicate sometimes.

I think....maybe...for me...that the different "roles" I've chosen ARE my femme experience. And that is not going to be yours or yours or yours or any of yours....same reality.

Femme, for me, is this woman who dresses to please herself. Who feels her body is her own in thigh highs and diving shirts. In blue jeans and t-shirts that are stained and dirty.

Femme, for me, is this woman who expresses things held to be "girly" with delight and no damned apologies.

Femme, for me, is this woman who can create pictures from words and write about romance and sex unabashedly and unashamedly.

My femme is not your femme and never will be. My femme may like to sit on the couch and ask for a foot rub. My femme may like to give foot rubs. My femme IS defined in some part by my attraction to butches.

I can not get around that or away from it. I'd still be femme if there were no butches, but that's kind of a silly, grandiose statement in my view.

I, after reading so much here, am beginning to feel frayed and frazzled as if my femme is not enough or maybe too much in the eyes of other femmes. And I know that's not true. I'm just speaking my own truth here and now.

So I think that for this femme--my femme experience is the total sum of all my labels and roles and expressions and lovers and femme friends. I don't think I can effectively unravel this present I am to myself without losing some of the pieces.

I do love that others can do this. I am learning so much in this thread. Thank you to everyone who has posted here.

[Lynn]

In this discussion, I'm still trying to untangle my identity as a woman from my identity as femme. I am a proud, fierce lesbian who reveres women of all orientations and types. I'm not talking about sexual attraction, only. I'm sexually attracted to butches, but, truthfully, there are women of all types who slay me. I remember that I had trouble reconciling my lesbianism with my own way of being. I'm now comfortable being feminine both in appearance and in my inner view. But, there was a time when I had trouble accepting this, as a lesbian. FEMME is where being a feminine woman and being a lesbian intersect, for me. Realizing and embracing my attraction to butches was a completely separate process from recognizing that "femme" was an aspect of my identity.

I hope this makes sense. I'm trying to articulate something that I am just figuring out here.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Lynn

I hope this makes sense. I'm trying to articulate something that I am just figuring out here.

Oh, I think we're probably all trying to articulate, and figuring it out as we go. *smiling* You're doing very well.

[Darth Denkay]

I have found this thread extremely enlightening to read. Admittedly I sometimes actually feel like a peeping Tom - should I even be reading this since it is, and should be, femme space. However, I can and do grow from all of your voices, so I'm guessing that reading is not intruding. My perspective is that because this is femme space I need to remain an observer. Of course, even by just posting this I am putting myself into it, but I guess I just wanted to share that I think non-femmes can gain much from reading this but our input should be limited. I hope this post does not feel intrusive.

[blush]

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

[christie]

Originally Posted by blush

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

Thank you for bringing this up!

It does feel like a ranking system to me. I have never understood it...

To me, I see "high femme" and I wonder what that person might be smoking! Is that like, "high as gas" or "high as Jesus"??

Its funny that I have never seen "low femme"...

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by christie0918

Its funny that I have never seen "low femme"...

I think this might apply to any femme shorter than 5'0".
But.... I could be wrong.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by blush

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

Blush.. I sarcastically have in my profile as my identity: Femme (neither high nor low). As I have heard these terms and have been asked, if I identify as a high femme or just a femme (lol). Are we talking maintenance here? Pretty much astounds me.

And what does high maintenance vs. low maintenance really mean? I am not a car for god sake! Though I do prefer rich dark roast coffee rather than maxwell house. Get's my engine purring!

Julie

[apretty]

Originally Posted by blush

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

don't even get me started.

i am so overly done with the term *high* femme as if there's some HIGHerarcy of femme--if that's the case,
where are all the HIGH butches?

i recall this sort-of date i had, years ago with this not-extremely well put together (which i don't mind, but bare with me, i have a point), nor educated in the ways of "how you conduct yourself on a dinner with me" type-butch. it was summer, i was wearing a teal blouse, black capris and cute sandals (hello! date-appropriate femme-wear! duh!) well this misguided and khaki-shorts-wearing butch sat across from me at this *pizzeria* and began to compare *femme* --his preference for *high* femme (while i denounce the term) and what it means to be *high femme* and it all basically came down to the heels and stockings that this *other* lady-femme-person apparently *lived* in evening wear 24/7. really? to the grocery store? that's just stupid. i repeat, it's stupid to wear evening wear to the grocery store and it does NOT make you HIGH anything.

i mean what the holy fuck--well, next he informed me that i'm not a *natural* submissive--which, enthralled me, because (tongue-in-cheek, here) i am sure, like all of my good sister femmes, i too love being told "about me" by someone i don't know/didn't ask (and who i have zero intention of submitting to/for because frankly, it takes something a little more than a daddy 'title' to get me there. see: ) ok, and if i sound rude, NONE of these people are on this website and i have no ill will towards this person--really, he just was/is misguided in his attempt to define *femme* to me (and not expect that i'll take the opportunity to fuck with him). and the topper: when all is said and done, i am not being a HIGH or GOOD femme because i am extremely disagreeable. and frankly, i can be disagreeable a LOT of the time--it doesn't take from or add to my GENDER.

/end rant. and i blame my sister-femme, blush for getting me all riled on a sunday.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by apretty

a teal blouse, black capris and cute sandals (hello! date-appropriate femme-wear! duh!) well this misguided and khaki-shorts-wearing butch sat across from me at this *pizzeria* and began to compare *femme* --his preference for *high* femme (while i denounce the term) and what it means to be *high femme* and it all basically came down to the heels and stockings that this *other* lady-femme-person apparently *lived* in evening wear 24/7. really? to the grocery store? that's just stupid. i repeat, it's stupid to wear evening wear to the grocery store and it does NOT make you HIGH anything.

Holy Hannah! I'd have left him sitting there with cheese hanging out of his mouth.

Now THAT ranking annoys me. I wasn't even considering it coming from a Butch. That one needed an attitude adjustment and I hope you gave him one.

That kind of ranking is about someone else needing to be seen by who is on their arm. That's a shallowness none of us need in our lives. And I'm glad you learned that about that before you actually developed any relationship with him.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by blush

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

For me, they don't. When someone id's as a "high" femme, I see, in my mind's eye, someone who likes to put on makeup and do the whole heels&hose drag.

I've never ever thought of it as a ranking or rating at all. I just see it as a qualifier of how much fussin' someone likes to do over their personal appearance.

But honestly, the only time I feel like there is a competition, for me, is how "girly" one can be. And it's a problem in my world to be seen as "not" girly enough.

That's more of a rating/ranking in my world than make-up and clothing (which is my sole identifier for high vs low femme.)

It's the simpering and giggling that get me because I don't personally get it. And, grin, I'm gonna say it outloud. It's the whole Daddy/girl thing played out in public. DO NOT GET IT AT ALL.

I get it as a personal, behind bedroom doors thing. I do not get it as a public play thing. And that's my hang up and it's my issue to deal with. I do not think others should modify their behaviour.

But that is what can also make me feel "not enough" because I am simply not willing to call someone "Daddy" and giggle and coo.

I rambled again. Blush, for what it's worth, you are one of the ones who can make me worry about my own femmeness. And it's not makeup or clothes or any of that. It is simply your own sweet self and your energy. I sometimes feel like a linebacker around women who are petite. Grin. So there you have it.

On my list of femmes who scare me....Blush and Puplove too. OH and femmes like Pinkielee who has the most amazing fashion sense. Shari goes in that category too as well as Adele.

So that's MY issue. It's my problem that I compare myself to others and sometimes find myself wanting.

That's not a butch issue. No butch is standing in the background saying, "Why can't you be more like MedusaIsadoraGemmeAnyoneOtherThanYou." That's my own low self-esteem sneaking up on me.

And I am on a hunt to destroy that voice. But this thread is really helping me identify what I trigger it with. ooh Badger.

So, again, high vs low? Not so much. Arwen vs other femmes? Hideous ranking system where I used to always lose. I'm learning though. I am learning.

[Bit]

Yikes! *hands the TX Self a bottle of Fray-Chek*

If I have played a part in the frazzled fraying, I'm sorry. I'm pretty analytical with things which fascinate me, and I can separate out intellectually those things which are not separate in life.... I can say here in this thread that for me "Queer is about sex and Femme is about gender," and I can talk about them as if they were separate things; but having lived without enough Butch energy in my life for many years, I know that I am different as a Femme depending on whether there are Butches around or not, and different yet again if there is sex in my life or not.... so even though I can talk as if they were separate, I can't compartmentalize them (sexuality and gender) quite so easily in life.

Nor do I want to. Part of the sexual thrill for me is being a Femme to a Butch. I like that. I like playing with that image and those roles.

Those images that haunt Ms. Cyn, especially the Donna Reed image, they haunt me too. I can never be Donna Reed, because yanno she was perfect, elegant, glamorous, never made a mistake, never put a foot wrong. Hell, I'm never in my life going to be glamorous or elegant or any of the rest of it.

I think what strikes me is that these images of femininity (Donna Reed, suzi homemaker, dress-up doll, sweet submissive) are tied to housework and obedience-to-the-men-who-own-one. Honestly, it makes me think of a slave--not in the BDSM sense, but in the real-life outrage-against-humanity forced sense.

If the epitome of all that is feminine is household slavery, how could ANYONE who is mentally healthy ever be "feminine enough" or "Femme enough"??

I had to find a different way to look at femininity and Femmeness. That's why I like the energy analogy. It isn't what I do or what particular personality I have or even whether or not someone masculine might "own" me--it's what kind of energy flows through me. I recognize that energy as Femme because I see it mirrored back to me again and again from the other Femmes in our community.

The amount and kind of Femme energy that flows through me might not be what appeals to every Butch, but it is "enough." I am Femme enough to suit myself... and really, who else has the right to judge?