masculine maturity?

jenny · 10-09-2010, 12:04 PM

Interesting topic. As the parent of both female and male children, I do see differences in the ways and speed with which they've matured -- but that's kids, not adults. Yes, I think there are biological differences in the way that girls and boys mature, which are a normal part of human physiology. There are evolutionary reasons for differences, which may not be important in society today, but which were essential to the continuation of the race way back when.

Once we reach physical adulthood, though, I think that "maturity" has less to do with gender identity or biological sex. After passing through our teen years, I think what most would consider "maturity" is more emotional and psychological in basis than physical. Could some of that emotional/psychological stuff be due to the work done in sorting out issues with gender identity? Sure. But I think there's a lot of factors at play here -- not *just* gender.

I know plenty of butches who, in their 20s and 30s, are far more mature than other butches in their 40s and beyond. I know femmes who vary in maturity as well. In nearly all cases, life experience is a huge part of where they are now, and differing emotional factors come into play as well.

On a personal level, I feel like at the age of 44, I finally know myself well, I'm comfortable with the person I am, and I genuinely like myself. Does that mean I'm "mature"? I don't know. But I do know that I'm happier and healthier emotionally now than I've ever been before. Was I "immature" in my 30s? I don't think so, but I do think I was less self-aware.

And something else to ponder... what's the definition of "mature"? Who gets to decide which people are "mature" and which aren't?

Thanks for starting this thread. I'll be watching to see what others have to say!!

Jen

skeeter_01 · 10-09-2010, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenny

....On a personal level, I feel like at the age of 44, I finally know myself well, I'm comfortable with the person I am, and I genuinely like myself. Does that mean I'm "mature"? I don't know. But I do know that I'm happier and healthier emotionally now than I've ever been before. Was I "immature" in my 30s? I don't think so, but I do think I was less self-aware.

Jen

which is exactly why i think women in their 40's are the sexiest things going...they are at that spot where they are comfortable in their own skins...more confident within themselves...and there is NOTHING sexier than confidence!

just sayin'...
skeet

jenny · 10-09-2010, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skeeter_01

which is exactly why i think women in their 40's are the sexiest things going...they are at that spot where they are comfortable in their own skins...more confident within themselves...and there is NOTHING sexier than confidence!

just sayin'...
skeet

WOOT!!! Yay for 40-something women, then! I have to say, understanding my own sexuality, proclivities, and desires sure makes me FEEL sexier in my 40s than I ever did back in my 20s and 30s! I remember being much younger and hearing the saying that women really come into their own sexually in their 40s -- at the time, I thought it was a big load of crap, but from where I sit now, I know it's completely true!

skeeter_01 · 10-09-2010, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenny

WOOT!!! Yay for 40-something women, then! I have to say, understanding my own sexuality, proclivities, and desires sure makes me FEEL sexier in my 40s than I ever did back in my 20s and 30s! I remember being much younger and hearing the saying that women really come into their own sexually in their 40s -- at the time, I thought it was a big load of crap, but from where I sit now, I know it's completely true!

YAY!! i agree!!

skeet

Chancie · 10-09-2010, 12:49 PM

I think this is an interesting thread.

Maybe part of what it means to be mature is a certain comfort in oneself, a certain amount of self awareness.

I am not the same femme I was when I was 30 years old, and

I can't speak to what it means to be an almost 50-year-old butch who has self defined as a butch for almost 20 years.

And of course butches aren't men or boys, except when they are.

BullDog · 10-09-2010, 01:26 PM

Well said Chancie butches are not male except when they are. You can't compare maturity levels in butches to boy and male. It isn't accurate. Most of us were socialized as girls- no matter how we identify- and many of us do not consider ourselves to be male.

I also agree with those who have said that maturity level has more to do with the individual person and not a whole group based on gender.

Gemme · 10-09-2010, 01:34 PM

Maturity, unlike beauty, is not in the eye of the beholder I think. For me, maturity is the manifestation of personal growth and the choices that come from that place. One can feel it, but the title is frivolous if not bestowed by someone else.

Do I spend my check on booze or girls/guys or material things that may or may not bring me pleasure, temporary or permanent?

or....

Do I spend my check on bills and put something in savings and place priority on the things I want over the long haul versus the short term?

Do I tailgate some minivan because it's not going as fast as I would like and then pass them in a no passing zone with my finger waving proud and loud in the air?

or...

Do I take a breath and realize that life won't end if I miss one of the trailers before the movie?

Do I purposefully hurt/degrade/bully another because I see they are vulnerable?

or...

Do I purposefully attempt to engage said person kindly or, at the very least, leave them alone?

These are just examples of course, but it comes down to...for me...being considerate of others, planning for the future, being if not kind then at least not cruel, and living your life as if it's something meaningful to you.

Maturity, to me, means acting like a damn grown up. Sure, some of us are firmly in touch with our inner children. I've participated in food fights and about 2 minutes ago, taunted my honey with the animal crackers, making the appropriate sounds while he was on the phone with a client. BUT--I didn't speak loud enough for the client to hear, since you don't mess with someone's livelihood...you just don't, and I helped clean up after the fight.

I can be as evolved, internally, as I want and then some, but until it comes through in my actions, I'm not there yet no matter my age, gender or identity.

wolfbittenpoet · 10-09-2010, 01:53 PM

I'm 23 I'm young I know it. But I've been told over and over I am more mature then that. But then again I made my choices or at least accepted myself young. Maturity I suppose happens in terms of experience. Some butches you meet have only allowed themselves to be butches for part of their lives. The same goes for a lot of transfolk. All the glbt community in a way goes through a second social teenage stage. People hit it at different times. In this time they learn to self actualize. For some they need this time because they've hidden their whole lives or conformed to different standards. Yes butches may mature later but it's because in ways some are finding a new person. Femmes are mostly femmes their whole lives they simply change sexual preferences or find a broader spectrum of themselves. Some butches are learning their place in the social construct we live in. So like teenage boys they flex themselves and have boneheaded moments but they learn. But overall I think maturity is individual. Some people will forever have the maturity of a spoiled six year old. It doesn't matter butch femme trans or other.

AtLast · 10-09-2010, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemme

Maturity, unlike beauty, is not in the eye of the beholder I think. For me, maturity is the manifestation of personal growth and the choices that come from that place. One can feel it, but the title is frivolous if not bestowed by someone else.

Do I spend my check on booze or girls/guys or material things that may or may not bring me pleasure, temporary or permanent?

or....

Do I spend my check on bills and put something in savings and place priority on the things I want over the long haul versus the short term?

Do I tailgate some minivan because it's not going as fast as I would like and then pass them in a no passing zone with my finger waving proud and loud in the air?

or...

Do I take a breath and realize that life won't end if I miss one of the trailers before the movie?

Do I purposefully hurt/degrade/bully another because I see they are vulnerable?

or...

Do I purposefully attempt to engage said person kindly or, at the very least, leave them alone?

These are just examples of course, but it comes down to...for me...being considerate of others, planning for the future, being if not kind then at least not cruel, and living your life as if it's something meaningful to you.

Maturity, to me, means acting like a damn grown up. Sure, some of us are firmly in touch with our inner children. I've participated in food fights and about 2 minutes ago, taunted my honey with the animal crackers, making the appropriate sounds while he was on the phone with a client. BUT--I didn't speak loud enough for the client to hear, since you don't mess with someone's livelihood...you just don't, and I helped clean up after the fight.

I can be as evolved, internally, as I want and then some, but until it comes through in my actions, I'm not there yet no matter my age, gender or identity.

You are so correct! Although brain chemistry, developmental markers attained as well as the onset of puberty (for both females and males) and menopause and male climacteric stages do relate to human maturity (and beyond)... chronological age, use of hormone therapy, gender identification are not on the same level (playing field, so to speak) in terms of biophysiological manifestations of maturation.

Personally and as a social and behavioral scientist, I sometimes want to choke on US societal norms that have been traditionally skewed toward more acceptance of male immaturity and there is a lot of research in the literature exposing this. Although, the US has quite a record of continued adolescent behavior being tolerated. And fergoddesssakes... look at all of the ethnic, racial, class variances in terms of this!

I have to also stand with Chancie about broad generalizations about femmes or butches, TG/IG people. There is no way I could make any kind of statement about maturity levels based upon any of these simply by the people I happen to now, have known, or will know. I would be stuck on stupid as well as trying to project my own background and personality make-up as somehow "expert" in making these assumptions. And I am a licensed clinician and when practicing, it was my ethical duty to keep up with the literature.

Antidotal, personal observations, even from the most learned are biased and end up being inaccurate which is why scientific inquiry has a method of investigation- to help weed out the biases we all just have.

I’m really not trying to come off as an educated elitist at all- I just get frustrated with shoot from the hip kinds of assumptions about human behavior and personality development, including my own which have their own skews.

10-09-2010, 12:04 PM	#1
jenny Member How Do You Identify?: queer femme Relationship Status: inquire within Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 956 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 434 Thanked 1,594 Times in 580 Posts Rep Power: 5091118	Interesting topic. As the parent of both female and male children, I do see differences in the ways and speed with which they've matured -- but that's kids, not adults. Yes, I think there are biological differences in the way that girls and boys mature, which are a normal part of human physiology. There are evolutionary reasons for differences, which may not be important in society today, but which were essential to the continuation of the race way back when. Once we reach physical adulthood, though, I think that "maturity" has less to do with gender identity or biological sex. After passing through our teen years, I think what most would consider "maturity" is more emotional and psychological in basis than physical. Could some of that emotional/psychological stuff be due to the work done in sorting out issues with gender identity? Sure. But I think there's a lot of factors at play here -- not just gender. I know plenty of butches who, in their 20s and 30s, are far more mature than other butches in their 40s and beyond. I know femmes who vary in maturity as well. In nearly all cases, life experience is a huge part of where they are now, and differing emotional factors come into play as well. On a personal level, I feel like at the age of 44, I finally know myself well, I'm comfortable with the person I am, and I genuinely like myself. Does that mean I'm "mature"? I don't know. But I do know that I'm happier and healthier emotionally now than I've ever been before. Was I "immature" in my 30s? I don't think so, but I do think I was less self-aware. And something else to ponder... what's the definition of "mature"? Who gets to decide which people are "mature" and which aren't? Thanks for starting this thread. I'll be watching to see what others have to say!! Jen __________________ "How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~ Anne Frank “Life's most persistent and urgent question is: 'What are you doing for others?'” ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

10-09-2010, 01:26 PM	#6
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,640 Times in 4,463 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Well said Chancie butches are not male except when they are. You can't compare maturity levels in butches to boy and male. It isn't accurate. Most of us were socialized as girls- no matter how we identify- and many of us do not consider ourselves to be male. I also agree with those who have said that maturity level has more to do with the individual person and not a whole group based on gender. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

10-09-2010, 01:34 PM	#7
Gemme Practically Lives Here How Do You Identify?: Queer Stone Femme Girl of the Unicorn Variety Preferred Pronoun?: She, as in 'She's a GEM' Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The roads are narrow here Posts: 36,631 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 182,498 Thanked 107,932 Times in 25,667 Posts Rep Power: 21474888	Maturity, unlike beauty, is not in the eye of the beholder I think. For me, maturity is the manifestation of personal growth and the choices that come from that place. One can feel it, but the title is frivolous if not bestowed by someone else. Do I spend my check on booze or girls/guys or material things that may or may not bring me pleasure, temporary or permanent? or.... Do I spend my check on bills and put something in savings and place priority on the things I want over the long haul versus the short term? Do I tailgate some minivan because it's not going as fast as I would like and then pass them in a no passing zone with my finger waving proud and loud in the air? or... Do I take a breath and realize that life won't end if I miss one of the trailers before the movie? Do I purposefully hurt/degrade/bully another because I see they are vulnerable? or... Do I purposefully attempt to engage said person kindly or, at the very least, leave them alone? These are just examples of course, but it comes down to...for me...being considerate of others, planning for the future, being if not kind then at least not cruel, and living your life as if it's something meaningful to you. Maturity, to me, means acting like a damn grown up. Sure, some of us are firmly in touch with our inner children. I've participated in food fights and about 2 minutes ago, taunted my honey with the animal crackers, making the appropriate sounds while he was on the phone with a client. BUT--I didn't speak loud enough for the client to hear, since you don't mess with someone's livelihood...you just don't, and I helped clean up after the fight. I can be as evolved, internally, as I want and then some, but until it comes through in my actions, I'm not there yet no matter my age, gender or identity. __________________ Gemme's Journal I'm misunderestimated. Last edited by Gemme; 10-09-2010 at 01:38 PM.

10-09-2010, 12:49 PM	#5
Chancie Senior Member How Do You Identify?: queer femme-inist Relationship Status: I'm lucky. Join Date: May 2010 Location: Western Mass Posts: 3,774 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,518 Thanked 14,540 Times in 2,744 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	I think this is an interesting thread. Maybe part of what it means to be mature is a certain comfort in oneself, a certain amount of self awareness. I am not the same femme I was when I was 30 years old, and I can't speak to what it means to be an almost 50-year-old butch who has self defined as a butch for almost 20 years. And of course butches aren't men or boys, except when they are.

10-09-2010, 01:53 PM	#8
wolfbittenpoet Member How Do You Identify?: Typewriter Boy Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Single Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: FL Posts: 534 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 891 Thanked 1,578 Times in 402 Posts Rep Power: 7303677	I'm 23 I'm young I know it. But I've been told over and over I am more mature then that. But then again I made my choices or at least accepted myself young. Maturity I suppose happens in terms of experience. Some butches you meet have only allowed themselves to be butches for part of their lives. The same goes for a lot of transfolk. All the glbt community in a way goes through a second social teenage stage. People hit it at different times. In this time they learn to self actualize. For some they need this time because they've hidden their whole lives or conformed to different standards. Yes butches may mature later but it's because in ways some are finding a new person. Femmes are mostly femmes their whole lives they simply change sexual preferences or find a broader spectrum of themselves. Some butches are learning their place in the social construct we live in. So like teenage boys they flex themselves and have boneheaded moments but they learn. But overall I think maturity is individual. Some people will forever have the maturity of a spoiled six year old. It doesn't matter butch femme trans or other.