The Veteran Thread

[Goofy]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Under the DADT discharge from the military, are people stripped of things like being able to utilize education grants/loans, home loan programs, VA health benefits, military service pensions?

There are things on top of a person being forced out of the military via DADT having to give up a career that I am wondering about. Are there differences in "honrable" discharges for our members that have served and leaving under DADT that are just not publicized to the general public?

Also wondering about how targets of DADT get treated when utilizing things on military bases they are entitled to, if the paperwork in DADT discharges is on the up and up. Just can't help thinking that so much of this ends up with our folks getting a double whammy.

This is so damn hard when someone believes deeply in the US Bill of Rights and rights to privacy.

I can't speak to all your questions, Atlast, but I'll do my best.

Veteran's benefits, including education and home loans are dependent on a person's discharge. If they are discharged honorably or under honorable conditions, then they are eligible for those benefits. If someone is dishonorably discharged, then they do not receive any benefits. Under DADT, it is possible to be discharged either way. Most of the folks I know, were honorably discharged.

An honorable discharge is just that, an honorable discharge. The reason for the discharge will appear on your official discharge papers. I can't speak for the other services, but the Army states the reason for discharge. It cites the chapter number under which one is discharged, when applicable, but doesn't necessarily state "homosexuality."

Once discharged from the Army, you can only get back on base if you retired or are rated as 100% disabled. Your ID card does not state the nature of your discharge.

Hope that helped.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Goofy

I can't speak to all your questions, Atlast, but I'll do my best.

Veteran's benefits, including education and home loans are dependent on a person's discharge. If they are discharged honorably or under honorable conditions, then they are eligible for those benefits. If someone is dishonorably discharged, then they do not receive any benefits. Under DADT, it is possible to be discharged either way. Most of the folks I know, were honorably discharged.

An honorable discharge is just that, an honorable discharge. The reason for the discharge will appear on your official discharge papers. I can't speak for the other services, but the Army states the reason for discharge. It cites the chapter number under which one is discharged, when applicable, but doesn't necessarily state "homosexuality."

Once discharged from the Army, you can only get back on base if you retired or are rated as 100% disabled. Your ID card does not state the nature of your discharge.

Hope that helped.

Yes, this clarifies a lot for me. Thanks. Especially retirement and the disability status and military benefits. Although, personally, I think service members should get a hell of a lot more overall. Bothers me.

I don't have a good background here (yet, have family that did serve, but really as enlisted during war time or drafted during a Vietnam) and also, so many of the things I did learn way back when don't apply today.

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Yes, this clarifies a lot for me. Thanks. Especially retirement and the disability status and military benefits. Although, personally, I think service members should get a hell of a lot more overall. Bothers me.

I don't have a good background here (yet, have family that did serve, but really as enlisted during war time or drafted during a Vietnam) and also, so many of the things I did learn way back when don't apply today.

Goofy was right on with his comments here!! Thanks for giving this info, Brother!!! I was in the barbershop, waiting for a haircut, when I read this thread on my Blackberry. I tried to type out a response on it, but was called for my haircut before I could finish!!

Like Goofy said, it depends on the character of a member's discharge that determines what kind of benefits they are eligible for, post discharge. You can read more about them and what benefits are given or lost here at this Wiki site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge

Back when I was serving in the Marine Corps, my friends and Drill Instructors who were kicked out were given, by and large, General Discharges Under Other Than Honorable Conditions. For a Marine, it was an issue of "Conduct Unbecoming of A Marine", even though the Marine's character of service may have been exemplary. This meant that they lost their VA benefits, meaning health care and home loans. Educational benefits were contributory back then under the VEAP (Veterans Educational Assistance Program), so I don't think those were necessarily lost, but I'm not sure on this.

When DADT is overturned and GLBTQ members are allowed to openly serve, I do hope that those who went before, our Veterans, who were unjustly discharged because of sexual orientation/identity will be allowed to have their discharges amended/upgraded and their benefits as Veterans restored. It is simply only the right thing to do.

Semper Fi,
~Theo~

[bigbutchmistie]

Hello Veterans My adopted dad was in the Navy, and my brother in the Army... . My grandfather in the Army who served in World War II. To each and every one of you who served this country giving your all, and putting your lives on the line for the freedom we have today. THANK YOU. From the bottom of my heart... I love and appreciate everyone of you. To all those who paid the ultimate sacrifice with their lives... THANK YOU.

For You

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by theoddz

Goofy was right on with his comments here!! Thanks for giving this info, Brother!!! I was in the barbershop, waiting for a haircut, when I read this thread on my Blackberry. I tried to type out a response on it, but was called for my haircut before I could finish!!

Like Goofy said, it depends on the character of a member's discharge that determines what kind of benefits they are eligible for, post discharge. You can read more about them and what benefits are given or lost here at this Wiki site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge

Back when I was serving in the Marine Corps, my friends and Drill Instructors who were kicked out were given, by and large, General Discharges Under Other Than Honorable Conditions. For a Marine, it was an issue of "Conduct Unbecoming of A Marine", even though the Marine's character of service may have been exemplary. This meant that they lost their VA benefits, meaning health care and home loans. Educational benefits were contributory back then under the VEAP (Veterans Educational Assistance Program), so I don't think those were necessarily lost, but I'm not sure on this.

When DADT is overturned and GLBTQ members are allowed to openly serve, I do hope that those who went before, our Veterans, who were unjustly discharged because of sexual orientation/identity will be allowed to have their discharges amended/upgraded and their benefits as Veterans restored. It is simply only the right thing to do. Semper Fi,
~Theo~

Thanks for more info that speaks to our Marine Corp. The link is very helpful.

I have been thinking a lot about exactly what you are saying about those that were unjustly discharged getting back what was taken from them. I want this to be part of the take down of DADT! And this action needs to be swift- not 50 years after-the-fact!

[BoDy*ShOt]

Originally Posted by Goofy

I can't speak to all your questions, Atlast, but I'll do my best.

Veteran's benefits, including education and home loans are dependent on a person's discharge. If they are discharged honorably or under honorable conditions, then they are eligible for those benefits. If someone is dishonorably discharged, then they do not receive any benefits. Under DADT, it is possible to be discharged either way. Most of the folks I know, were honorably discharged.

An honorable discharge is just that, an honorable discharge. The reason for the discharge will appear on your official discharge papers. I can't speak for the other services, but the Army states the reason for discharge. It cites the chapter number under which one is discharged, when applicable, but doesn't necessarily state "homosexuality."

Once discharged from the Army, you can only get back on base if you retired or are rated as 100% disabled. Your ID card does not state the nature of your discharge.

Hope that helped.

Navy 1997 - 2001

i am honorably discharged on a "rainbow chit" - my dd214 states reason for discharge: homosexual misconduct, and am never allowed to join the US military again. (i'm too old now anyway lol.)

my co fought for me to stay in, it was definitely an interesting time in my life. they sent me out to sea while they "discussed" the discharge, allowing me to complete my time for VA benefits eligibility. i thank them for that.

[Tommi]

Dan Choi's Veterans Day Message
By Advocate.com Editors


As the United States honors the contributions of its service members on this Veterans Day, Lt. Dan Choi reflects on the war that gay veterans continue to fight at home long after the battles abroad stop.

Choi shared his thoughts in a piece for the Huffington Post:

"As we fight to repeal 'don't ask don't tell,' we know that this fight can easily be more painful than physical combat, as the people we fought to protect subject us to the harsh bigotry of popularity polls and the soft bigotry of political inaction," he writes. "Caught in this battlefield, it is easy to claim victimhood and suffocate in the sadness of national betrayal. Gay Americans, like all scapegoated and stigmatized minorities in America's history, know this feeling all too well. But just as all the patriots who had to come home to fight for equality, we cannot heal our injuries by permanent sorrow and self-pity. The only treatment that can heal the wounds of betrayal and hatred is a recommitment to fight for each other, to stand up for each other, to love one another."


http://www.opensecrets.org/news/dan-...tape-small.jpg

[Spirit Dancer]

[justkim]

I know that Veteran's Day has come and gone...
I wanted to share with you a link my dad sent to me...
Besides every day should be Veteran's Day!

If anyone is interested in the photo's that I took this last Wednesday of one of our local boys last journey home... You can find them on my FB, if you aren't a friend there and would like to be added please feel free to contact me...

http://00f2630.netsolhost.com/farewellmarine.html

[Greyson]

I was not sure where to post this article. I chose this thread out of respect for the Marine Corps and all that serve. In general, I try not to post too much of my own editorial when posting articles because I hope you will form your own opinion based on some critical analysis. Not on what I or others may think and/or what is the popular opinion.

I will admit that I come from a family with some of that Marine Corp ethos. My father is a retired Marine and served in Korea. It was my goal to be a Marine but because of physical limitations, I could not serve upon turning 18 years old.

Of course most of us here most likely believe "Don't Ask Don't Tell" should be repealed and here is yet another moment, piece of information to consider "why."

__________________________________________________ _______________

The few. The proud. The problem. Can the Corps' warrior ethos accept openly gay Marines?

By Tammy S. Schultz

Sunday, November 21, 2010; B01



Tammy S. Schultz is director of national security and joint warfare at the U.S. Marine Corps War College. The views expressed here are her own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Marine Corps University.

After 17 years, "don't ask, don't tell" may finally be on its way out. Even if the Senate resists the latest efforts to end the policy, it appears that most members of the military - from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on down - support the law's repeal.

But there's one part of the military where resistance is greater than in any other: the United States Marine Corps.

That is clear from early reports about a survey sent to 400,000 active duty and reserve service members on "don't ask, don't tell" that will be officially released next month. More than 70 percent of respondents, spanning all branches of the military, said the effect of repealing the prohibition on openly gay troops would be positive, mixed or nonexistent. But about 40 percent of the Marine Corps respondents expressed concern about lifting the ban.

Top Corps leaders, past and present, haven't been shy about stating their concerns. While serving as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Marine Gen. Peter Pace said in 2007 that "homosexual acts between individuals are immoral and . . . we should not condone immoral acts." (He later clarified that the comment reflected his personal religious views.) While serving as Marine Corps commandant, Gen. James Conway told reporters in August that "an overwhelming majority [of Marines] would like not to be roomed with a person that is openly homosexual." Most recently, the current commandant, Gen. James Amos, while expressing support for the survey, echoed Conway's comments, eliciting a mild rebuke from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Adm. Mike Mullen.

What is it about the Marines? Compared with the other services, why do a disproportionate number of them overtly resist ending "don't ask, don't tell"?
I have studied, taught and interviewed Marines for 15 years and have gained great appreciation for the history and culture of the Corps, so much so, in fact, that I began teaching at the Marine Corps War College in Quantico almost three years ago.

Marines have survived and thrived as a service in part because they exemplify everything warrior. (I have never seen as many trucks with gun racks as I do driving on the Quantico base.) They pride themselves on being the toughest service, serving in the most austere environments under the most demanding circumstances. This pride has been forged throughout history, from Iwo Jima to Khe Sanh, from Fallujah to Helmand province.

In the Corps, the creed that "every Marine is a rifleman" means that no matter the Marine's specialty, he or she is ready to fight. Marines do battle where the stakes are high and the quarters close. Although they have individual specialties, they all have infantry in their blood.

As a rule, ground pounders are more conservative, resistant to change and likely to uphold tradition. This equates to a fear of the unknown - in this case, serving in combat with an openly gay Marine.

Every Marine sees himself or herself as on the front lines, if not at the moment, then ready to deploy at any time. The Marine Corps is a smaller service than the other branches, with a greater singularity of purpose. That attitude is part of Marine Corps exceptionalism broadly, as well as when it comes to the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell." Anything that could dilute the warrior ethos will face a challenge.

I am an openly gay woman, equally comfortable at Quantico and in Dupont Circle. Each of these worlds holds negative stereotypes about the other, and like all stereotypes, they tend to break down on an individual level. Yet for some in both cultures, the notion of a gay Marine seems almost impossible, as though this most masculine and punishing service simply isn't for gay people.

You don't need to spend time with Marines, as I have, to realize how important the warrior ethos is to them. Simply turn on the television and see how the Corps markets itself: Do you have what it takes to join the few, the proud? When discussing their high retention numbers with the Marine Corps leadership a few years ago, I was told that the Corps prides itself on not having to pay big bonuses, as the other branches do, to keep people in the force - the honor of being a Marine is all the reward offered or desired. It's part of why there are no former Marines, only retired Marines. Once you've joined the tribe, unless you do something that goes against the Corps' values of honor, courage and commitment, you never leave.

In the Marines, anything that seems to contradict or challenge that warrior culture is treated like a foreign particle entering a body's immune system - it is rejected. This visceral reaction will not change if we dismiss those who value these traditions.

But the Marine Corps culture itself, I believe, will eventually lead the service to support the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell."

Although I am not closeted, the fact that I am gay does not come up in my job as a professor at the War College. Nor should it. I am not a Marine. I have not been in combat with Marines. The students at the college are the future leaders of the Corps, and I lead respectful debates in class on issues from grand strategy to counterinsurgency operations. I'm sure that my sexuality does not fit with the private views of every Marine. But it doesn't have to. I was hired by the college as a professional and honored as the 2010 outstanding Marine Corps University civilian professor. In my experience with the Marines, professionalism trumps sexuality.

I am very sympathetic to the strain that the Marine Corps is under and would never support a policy change that I thought would hurt the Corps in a time of war. I have researched the implications of repealing the law, willing to land wherever the facts led me. The argument that we can't repeal the policy because it would impair troops on the ground from carrying out their missions is specious; the opposition to the policy on practical or logistical grounds is surmountable.


The values of honor, courage and commitment are inseparable from the Marines. By definition, gay and lesbian Marines break one or more of these core tenets every time they have to hide or lie about who they are. Eventually, gay Marines must out themselves by upholding Corps values, or continue compromising the very values that make them Marines.

Repealing "don't ask, don't tell" would not mean that hundreds of gay and lesbian Marines would immediately come out of the closet. But it would mean that they could keep their personal and professional integrity. The examples from other countries where homosexuals are allowed to serve suggest that many will go about their lives as normal, but without the fear of being discharged if discovered.

The key to reconciling Marine culture with the open service of gay men and women will not be found among the rank and file or even among closeted service members; it must come from Corps leaders. Most research on how to integrate minority groups into the military has a common thread: the utmost importance of leadership to the process. The fact that the current and prior Marine commandants have expressed discomfort at the prospect of the demise of "don't ask, don't tell" is unfortunate because the generals risk creating a self-fulfilling prophecy, hurting the Corps they desire to protect.

"Don't ask, don't tell" will be reversed in time. And as the military survey indicates, a majority of the Corps does not see a risk in the repeal. How the change affects the Marines is up to the leadership. A Marine officer once told me that, besides all Marines being riflemen and riflewomen, what sets them apart is discipline: "If the law changes," he said, "we will comply with the law. You can take that to the bank."

I believe he's right. The United States Marine Corps is the most professional force in the world. There is no reason to think that it will be less adept at integrating gays than Britain, Canada or Australia (just three of the 26 countries that allow gays and lesbians to serve openly, according to the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network).

The current leadership should look to a fellow Marine for guidance. Staff Sgt. Eric Alva stepped on a landmine and lost his right leg only three hours into ground operations in Iraq in 2003; he was the first service member to be wounded there. He also happens to be gay. Alva received a medical discharge and has gone on to work for the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell." At an event in 2007, he came out publicly, saying, "I'm an American who fought for his country and for the protection and the rights and freedoms of all American citizens - not just some of them, but all of them."

The Marine Corps leadership should not only accept such sacrifices but honor those who make them. The Corps' motto, "semper fidelis," means "always faithful." There is no qualifier for sexual orientation. Once a Marine, always a Marine.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?tid=obinsite

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Greyson

I was not sure where to post this article. I chose this thread out of respect for the Marine Corps and all that serve. In general, I try not to post too much of my own editorial when posting articles because I hope you will form your own opinion based on some critical analysis. Not on what I or others may think and/or what is the popular opinion.

I will admit that I come from a family with some of that Marine Corp ethos. My father is a retired Marine and served in Korea. It was my goal to be a Marine but because of physical limitations, I could not serve upon turning 18 years old.

Of course most of us here most likely believe "Don't Ask Don't Tell" should be repealed and here is yet another moment, piece of information to consider "why."

__________________________________________________ _______________

The few. The proud. The problem. Can the Corps' warrior ethos accept openly gay Marines?

By Tammy S. Schultz

Sunday, November 21, 2010; B01



Tammy S. Schultz is director of national security and joint warfare at the U.S. Marine Corps War College. The views expressed here are her own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Marine Corps University.

After 17 years, "don't ask, don't tell" may finally be on its way out. Even if the Senate resists the latest efforts to end the policy, it appears that most members of the military - from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on down - support the law's repeal.

But there's one part of the military where resistance is greater than in any other: the United States Marine Corps.

That is clear from early reports about a survey sent to 400,000 active duty and reserve service members on "don't ask, don't tell" that will be officially released next month. More than 70 percent of respondents, spanning all branches of the military, said the effect of repealing the prohibition on openly gay troops would be positive, mixed or nonexistent. But about 40 percent of the Marine Corps respondents expressed concern about lifting the ban.

Top Corps leaders, past and present, haven't been shy about stating their concerns. While serving as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Marine Gen. Peter Pace said in 2007 that "homosexual acts between individuals are immoral and . . . we should not condone immoral acts." (He later clarified that the comment reflected his personal religious views.) While serving as Marine Corps commandant, Gen. James Conway told reporters in August that "an overwhelming majority [of Marines] would like not to be roomed with a person that is openly homosexual." Most recently, the current commandant, Gen. James Amos, while expressing support for the survey, echoed Conway's comments, eliciting a mild rebuke from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Adm. Mike Mullen.

What is it about the Marines? Compared with the other services, why do a disproportionate number of them overtly resist ending "don't ask, don't tell"?
I have studied, taught and interviewed Marines for 15 years and have gained great appreciation for the history and culture of the Corps, so much so, in fact, that I began teaching at the Marine Corps War College in Quantico almost three years ago.

Marines have survived and thrived as a service in part because they exemplify everything warrior. (I have never seen as many trucks with gun racks as I do driving on the Quantico base.) They pride themselves on being the toughest service, serving in the most austere environments under the most demanding circumstances. This pride has been forged throughout history, from Iwo Jima to Khe Sanh, from Fallujah to Helmand province.

In the Corps, the creed that "every Marine is a rifleman" means that no matter the Marine's specialty, he or she is ready to fight. Marines do battle where the stakes are high and the quarters close. Although they have individual specialties, they all have infantry in their blood.

As a rule, ground pounders are more conservative, resistant to change and likely to uphold tradition. This equates to a fear of the unknown - in this case, serving in combat with an openly gay Marine.

Every Marine sees himself or herself as on the front lines, if not at the moment, then ready to deploy at any time. The Marine Corps is a smaller service than the other branches, with a greater singularity of purpose. That attitude is part of Marine Corps exceptionalism broadly, as well as when it comes to the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell." Anything that could dilute the warrior ethos will face a challenge.

I am an openly gay woman, equally comfortable at Quantico and in Dupont Circle. Each of these worlds holds negative stereotypes about the other, and like all stereotypes, they tend to break down on an individual level. Yet for some in both cultures, the notion of a gay Marine seems almost impossible, as though this most masculine and punishing service simply isn't for gay people.

You don't need to spend time with Marines, as I have, to realize how important the warrior ethos is to them. Simply turn on the television and see how the Corps markets itself: Do you have what it takes to join the few, the proud? When discussing their high retention numbers with the Marine Corps leadership a few years ago, I was told that the Corps prides itself on not having to pay big bonuses, as the other branches do, to keep people in the force - the honor of being a Marine is all the reward offered or desired. It's part of why there are no former Marines, only retired Marines. Once you've joined the tribe, unless you do something that goes against the Corps' values of honor, courage and commitment, you never leave.

In the Marines, anything that seems to contradict or challenge that warrior culture is treated like a foreign particle entering a body's immune system - it is rejected. This visceral reaction will not change if we dismiss those who value these traditions.

But the Marine Corps culture itself, I believe, will eventually lead the service to support the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell."

Although I am not closeted, the fact that I am gay does not come up in my job as a professor at the War College. Nor should it. I am not a Marine. I have not been in combat with Marines. The students at the college are the future leaders of the Corps, and I lead respectful debates in class on issues from grand strategy to counterinsurgency operations. I'm sure that my sexuality does not fit with the private views of every Marine. But it doesn't have to. I was hired by the college as a professional and honored as the 2010 outstanding Marine Corps University civilian professor. In my experience with the Marines, professionalism trumps sexuality.

I am very sympathetic to the strain that the Marine Corps is under and would never support a policy change that I thought would hurt the Corps in a time of war. I have researched the implications of repealing the law, willing to land wherever the facts led me. The argument that we can't repeal the policy because it would impair troops on the ground from carrying out their missions is specious; the opposition to the policy on practical or logistical grounds is surmountable.


The values of honor, courage and commitment are inseparable from the Marines. By definition, gay and lesbian Marines break one or more of these core tenets every time they have to hide or lie about who they are. Eventually, gay Marines must out themselves by upholding Corps values, or continue compromising the very values that make them Marines.

Repealing "don't ask, don't tell" would not mean that hundreds of gay and lesbian Marines would immediately come out of the closet. But it would mean that they could keep their personal and professional integrity. The examples from other countries where homosexuals are allowed to serve suggest that many will go about their lives as normal, but without the fear of being discharged if discovered.

The key to reconciling Marine culture with the open service of gay men and women will not be found among the rank and file or even among closeted service members; it must come from Corps leaders. Most research on how to integrate minority groups into the military has a common thread: the utmost importance of leadership to the process. The fact that the current and prior Marine commandants have expressed discomfort at the prospect of the demise of "don't ask, don't tell" is unfortunate because the generals risk creating a self-fulfilling prophecy, hurting the Corps they desire to protect.

"Don't ask, don't tell" will be reversed in time. And as the military survey indicates, a majority of the Corps does not see a risk in the repeal. How the change affects the Marines is up to the leadership. A Marine officer once told me that, besides all Marines being riflemen and riflewomen, what sets them apart is discipline: "If the law changes," he said, "we will comply with the law. You can take that to the bank."

I believe he's right. The United States Marine Corps is the most professional force in the world. There is no reason to think that it will be less adept at integrating gays than Britain, Canada or Australia (just three of the 26 countries that allow gays and lesbians to serve openly, according to the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network).

The current leadership should look to a fellow Marine for guidance. Staff Sgt. Eric Alva stepped on a landmine and lost his right leg only three hours into ground operations in Iraq in 2003; he was the first service member to be wounded there. He also happens to be gay. Alva received a medical discharge and has gone on to work for the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell." At an event in 2007, he came out publicly, saying, "I'm an American who fought for his country and for the protection and the rights and freedoms of all American citizens - not just some of them, but all of them."

The Marine Corps leadership should not only accept such sacrifices but honor those who make them. The Corps' motto, "semper fidelis," means "always faithful." There is no qualifier for sexual orientation. Once a Marine, always a Marine.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?tid=obinsite

Thank you greyson!!! I agree with every word this person wrote. Very well explained , to inform a person who has no clue of the Marine Corps enviroment.

[Tommi]

IF you don't belong, I highly recomend it. There is constant news, for current and previously discharged servicemembers. DADT has been beneficial to many who serve presently. SLDN Reports Servicemembers Defense League Network

Here is blog if you wish to read and or tell your Story. . There is great info on the site, and there may be meetings in your area. I attend events when I can.

I served before Don't Ask Don't Tell. I was obviously gay as were my Superior USAF Dyke Officers, but no one openly so on base.

I received the "General Discharge" that the Air Force granted after thoroughly investigating me for 6 weeks to see if I "did anything against the US Government while in service". I didn't "Do anybody on base", my background was clean, so I was granted the Honorable...discharge versus spending time in the brig if I chose to fight for and make TSgt. Gawd I love that uniform. (Not me but great picture)