Stone Butches

[BullDog]

As a stone butch I don't see having sex as being pre-defined or there being any less individual variation as to how I would relate to a partner. I don't think having sex with a stone butch is going to be any more or less predictable than having sex with someone who isn't stone butch and there's plenty of room for experimentation, spontaneity and playing off each other's vibes and energy exchange. That's not to say that every person is going to want to have sex with or partner with a stone butch. It's not for everyone.

I do agree with Converse that I don't equate being a Stone Butch with having sex with restrictions. It is much more encompassing than that. For me, it is quite freeing not restricting.

However, I don't think there is one, all encompassing Stone energy or that Stones can just nod at each other and know what one another is talking about- that's something I have seen discussed a number of times in the past, and I don't think that is the case. I think Stone Butch does mean different things to different people. I certainly don't relate at all when people start talking about feminizing touch or relating stone to being male. There are different types of Stone Butch and different personal meanings for it.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by BullDog

As a stone butch I don't see having sex as being pre-defined or there being any less individual variation as to how I would relate to a partner. I don't think having sex with a stone butch is going to be any more or less predictable than having sex with someone who isn't stone butch and there's plenty of room for experimentation, spontaneity and playing off each other's vibes and energy exchange. That's not to say that every person is going to want to have sex with or partner with a stone butch. It's not for everyone.

I do agree with Converse that I don't equate being a Stone Butch with having sex with restrictions. It is much more encompassing than that. For me, it is quite freeing not restricting.

However, I don't think there is one, all encompassing Stone energy or that Stones can just nod at each other and know what one another is talking about- that's something I have seen discussed a number of times in the past, and I don't think that is the case. I think Stone Butch does mean different things to different people. I certainly don't relate at all when people start talking about feminizing touch or relating stone to being male. There are different types of Stone Butch and different personal meanings for it.

Hi !

Your post jumped out at me.. maybe because of the time, 1:11 of your post (my own thing) and maybe because I have usually liked your input on these subjects.. I've seen the stone threads take a bad turn because not everyone agrees what a stone is. I liked what you said about leaving room for experimentation! I cannot imagine a world, or sex where it is so limited, dependent on a preconceived notion that I would or would not like something.. each person IS different. There are hard limits of course I realize this.. maybe thats why its called *stone* ?

Stone butch (and stone femme) like MANY words in our vocabulary are user defined.. as it should be I feel. I get confused with the whole thing.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by sassy_girl

Hello Stoners...

I guess I am going against the grain here and saying I don't understand limiting your dating pool by what someone has wanted or wanted in sex. I could never not want to be with someone because of what they want or don't want sexually, I suppose if that would be a dealbreaker for me ( I can't even imagine) it would be different.

I guess I just don't see what is wrong with two people getting together and discovering what energy/magic/vibes they get off each other and rolling with it. The way I have been with one lover does not define how I will be with another lover..

It all just seems so predefined. I'm trying to understand I suppose.

Pre-defined.

If I may....kisses are pre-defined. You know what's going to happen, in general, if you kiss someone. Or do you?

Have you ever been kissed in a way and to the point that your heart flutters and your toes tingle? Have you felt the waves of love or lust eminating off of them though they've barely brushed your lips? Have you been kissed in a dirty back alley, hastily, with their hands twisted in your hair as you were shoved up against the brick wall? Have you spent hours lounging in bed, becoming intimately acquainted with another's lips? Have you expected one type of kiss...perhaps chaste...and been surprised by a lengthy, invasive French kiss? Or vise versa?

Every kiss is different, though it is only a kiss. It's pre-defined. Or is it?

My point is that what seems like putting limitations on intimacy to you is really ensuring that our partners (for the most part) will understand HOW we like to kiss, so to speak.

I see Stone as less of an inhibitor and more of a freeing agent, allowing me to be me and him to be himself, and both of us with the understanding of how we prefer to move within our intimate relationship...and how we like to kiss.

[asphaltcowboi]

good morning stones and all who relate in some sort of way... i hope everyone has a great weekend!

[sharonsuburbia]

Originally Posted by cody

good morning stones and all who relate in some sort of way... i hope everyone has a great weekend!

good morning oops afternoon - enjoy

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by sassy_girl

Now that is an analogy I can understand... actually makes sense..

I do think the word itself *stone* may be where I get stuck.. It sounds very solid... this is it, no wavering.. so having realized this is a big help around how I view "stone" ...

Thanks Gemme!

Glad I could help.

Originally Posted by LostLamb

Hi there all...Random, these are the two ways I see being 'stone' as well. I'd been a 'lesbian' all my life because I didn't know there were other id's out there. All I know was that thru-out my 'lesbian' life, I was very unhappy about the sexual aspect of my relationships. I've always been extremely attracted to very masculine looking/behaving females, and didn't understand why. My friends would chide me about my taste, and some had the audacity to tell me that if I wanted someone who looked/acted 'like that', I wasn't really gay, and I should get myself a man! I had no comeback because I didn't understand my preference either, and thought maybe there was something wrong with me. But I knew I didn't want a bio-male, that was something I was definately sure about.

It took discovering the butch-femme sites and reading the posts of femmes who felt the way I did, to realize that there was absolutely nothing wrong with me - I had 'sisters'... So now, I am very comfortabe in my skin, and have come to the conclusion that I don't have to explain myself or my preferences to anyone, but most importantly that it is *their* problem, not mine.

Sorry for the long post, and thank you for indulging me.

LostLamb

Hi, Lamb, and to the site!

I'm glad you've found yourself and us!

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Pre-defined.

If I may....kisses are pre-defined. You know what's going to happen, in general, if you kiss someone. Or do you?

Have you ever been kissed in a way and to the point that your heart flutters and your toes tingle? Have you felt the waves of love or lust eminating off of them though they've barely brushed your lips? Have you been kissed in a dirty back alley, hastily, with their hands twisted in your hair as you were shoved up against the brick wall? Have you spent hours lounging in bed, becoming intimately acquainted with another's lips? Have you expected one type of kiss...perhaps chaste...and been surprised by a lengthy, invasive French kiss? Or vise versa?

Every kiss is different, though it is only a kiss. It's pre-defined. Or is it?

My point is that what seems like putting limitations on intimacy to you is really ensuring that our partners (for the most part) will understand HOW we like to kiss, so to speak.

I see Stone as less of an inhibitor and more of a freeing agent, allowing me to be me and him to be himself, and both of us with the understanding of how we prefer to move within our intimate relationship...and how we like to kiss.

Now that is an analogy I can understand... actually makes sense..

I do think the word itself *stone* may be where I get stuck.. It sounds very solid... this is it, no wavering.. so having realized this is a big help around how I view "stone" ...

Thanks Gemme!

[Sachita]

every time I enter this discussion my head feels like a pin ball machine.

for me its a type of dynamic I share with a stone butch. I dont want to touch hym/her in a feminine way yet I want to be touched that way. But really isnt this a butch-femme dynamic in a way? Maybe with a layer of stone?

but if my stone butch rolled over and asked me to fuck them them sideways I'd do it. It might not rock my world or float my boat but as a partner I'm more then happy to provide.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by sassy_girl

Hi !

Your post jumped out at me.. maybe because of the time, 1:11 of your post (my own thing) and maybe because I have usually liked your input on these subjects.. I've seen the stone threads take a bad turn because not everyone agrees what a stone is. I liked what you said about leaving room for experimentation! I cannot imagine a world, or sex where it is so limited, dependent on a preconceived notion that I would or would not like something.. each person IS different. There are hard limits of course I realize this.. maybe thats why its called *stone* ?

Stone butch (and stone femme) like MANY words in our vocabulary are user defined.. as it should be I feel. I get confused with the whole thing.

I've read this thread a little here and there, and have largely held off posting because:

1) I don't at this point in my life identify as stone butch, though there was a time in which I did.
2) I have always been frustrated by how some attempt choose to define the identity of others. I mostly overcome this feeling by remembering that the ignorance, assumptions and sense of entitlement of others is no reflection on me.

However, I was sort of surprised that by page 4 there has been no discussion of the etymology of the word, even after sassy made the post above.

While many words are "user defined," especially those revolving around identity (like "stone"), each does have a root from which it originated. Stone comes from the term "stone cold," to refer to things that were "very cold." The root of that expression is believed to reference when floors were often made of slate and would become extremely cold in winter. Other examples of this application include, "stone cold sober" simply meaning very sober; sober as most possibly sober.

One commonly held belief is that "stone butch" came about to refer to butches that were "stone cold butch;" the most butch among butches - those who were most masculine (and I pointedly state "masculine" not male). This is the definition to which I have always held. It refers to a butch who is unwavering in their identity, and in their presentation of self; one who would never sacrifice their personal sense of comfort, well being and identity in order to bend to the wishes of others, whether seeking a job, dealing with family, or a sexual partner. This definition, for me, includes no particular reference to sex/sexuality, but allows for each stone butch to define for themselves what their comfort level is and how they are going to hold that line - in all aspects of their life. Technically, that means a stone butch could be quite "free" sexually, including open to anal penetration or oral sex, for example.

I have seen a lot of nonsense over the years in which people have tried to say that if one is stone they would never engage in x, y, z sexual practices, but I disagree that the label includes such rigid definitions, or in fact, that it would necessarily include much in the way of preconceived or pre-defined notions of sex. Further, being stone doesn't in any way necessarily relate to being a top, or a "daddy." These are other, unrelated identities that can certainly be attached, but are not inclusive in the definition of stone butch.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Converse

It is simply who I am, it is not an activity or a set of guidelines that are followed when the bedroom door is closed- it is who I am when I sit across the dinner table from you,

YES. Did you hear the click? Circuit complete....

Originally Posted by Converse

it is who I am when my opinion or advice is sought, it is who I am when I greet or walk beside you. We can only really understand the world from the shoes in which we stand- and although my boots are Stone, they are not heavy or uncomfortable; they instead make me sure footed, connected, confident.

This is exactly what I mean, exactly what draws me--the place from which a Stone Butch sees the world.

Originally Posted by Converse

Anybody can change their behaviour; ignoring the fact that I would probably be sporting a twisted ankle within minutes, I’m sure for example I could wear a pair of heels. But as disorientating as that might be to any onlooker, it would be nothing compared to the degree of alienation that I would feel about myself. Can I explain why? No not really- all I know is that is who I am. It feels right and as natural as hmmmm… stone.

One of the things which draws me to both Stone Butches and Transmen is this kind of self-awareness and self-confidence, this (usually hard-won) knowledge that of all the ways to be in this world and regardless of other people's judgment, this is the way that fits them best--and not just them, but also fits me (and other potential partners) the best. It was Stone Butches who taught me to stop judging myself by other people's (impossible) standards, who allowed me to simply relax into myself and be who I am in all parts of my life without fear or guilt. It was Stone Butches who taught me--just by existing--about that energy circuit, and what it can mean when the connection is made. It was Stone Butches who knew what to say and how to say it, who knew how to rebuild my shattered confidence, who knew how to tell me that I have value just by being.

That wasn't a message I could hear from other Butches, even when they spoke it. I heard it from Stone Butches because of the energy connection between us; that period of my life, that time of great healing, holds my most treasured friendships and memories.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Bit

<snip>One of the things which draws me to both Stone Butches and Transmen is this kind of self-awareness and self-confidence, this (usually hard-won) knowledge that of all the ways to be in this world and regardless of other people's judgment, this is the way that fits them best--and not just them, but also fits me (and other potential partners) the best. It was Stone Butches who taught me to stop judging myself by other people's (impossible) standards, who allowed me to simply relax into myself and be who I am in all parts of my life without fear or guilt. It was Stone Butches who taught me--just by existing--about that energy circuit, and what it can mean when the connection is made. It was Stone Butches who knew what to say and how to say it, who knew how to rebuild my shattered confidence, who knew how to tell me that I have value just by being.

That wasn't a message I could hear from other Butches, even when they spoke it. I heard it from Stone Butches because of the energy connection between us; that period of my life, that time of great healing, holds my most treasured friendships and memories.

No offense intended, more a matter of clarification and to keep us all grounded here, but since you didn't, bit, please allow me to qualify that this "self-awareness and self-confidence...this (usually hard-won) knowledge that of all the ways to be in this world and regardless of other people's judgment, this is the way that fits them best" is in your experience, and hardly applicable across the board.

I think it is a huge fallacy to assume that either stone butches or transmen universally possess this self-awareness and self-confidence; that all veils of insecurity and self-doubt have been magically lifted. While this thread is to celebrate the stone butch (and here I will also go on record that the term "stoner" is sort of offensive to me), let's not bestow upon them some elevated status or mantles of higher evolution.

Which is not at all to diminish your personal experience of the clicking of all things that matter. You are fortunate to have that, and no one can take it.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Ahhhhhh, Bit. One of the "mothers" of internet stone butch theory (so to speak), in my opinion. Welcome! <tips hat>

Thank you for the welcome, Dapper, and for that very kind thought. I never thought of myself that way, yanno? To me it was the community discussions that mattered, and we were all a part of that. I learned so much during those discussions, both about others and about myself!

Originally Posted by lipstixgal

I wonder where all the stone butches are in NJ/NY they keep to themselves I think..

Ah, well, Gail, it's not exactly something that shows on the outside *soft smile* and I think most Stone Butches are private about such things with new people anyway. You could try looking for the people who make your heart sing, and just being open to as many Butches as possible; the Stone Butches I've known have all valued getting to know a potential partner before actually talking about more intimate things.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

No offense intended, more a matter of clarification and to keep us all grounded here, but since you didn't, bit, please allow me to qualify that this "self-awareness and self-confidence...this (usually hard-won) knowledge that of all the ways to be in this world and regardless of other people's judgment, this is the way that fits them best" is in your experience, and hardly applicable across the board.

There is any other possible way to interpret "what draws ME," than that it would be "in my experience"? I think that possibly you do the rest of the readers of this thread a disservice to assume they are unable to understand that I am talking about myself and my own experience, most especially since I have taken pains to make it plain that I am NOT talking about anyone else.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I think it is a huge fallacy to assume that either stone butches or transmen universally possess this self-awareness and self-confidence

Why would anyone make such an assumption, Bent? Why wouldn't people who are reading this thread say to themselves, "well, look, Cathie is talking about the kind of people she is attracted to, Stone Butches and Transmen who happen to embody that kind of self-awareness and confidence"? Why would anyone reading this thread assume that all people are the same, and that if I have run into confident Stone Butches, then ipso facto all Stone Butches are confident?

Again, I think you are doing the readers of this thread a disservice by assuming their inability to understand that I am talking about my own experience--and I believe you are doing us all a disservice by assuming that anyone would think this is the sum total of my experience.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

that all veils of insecurity and self-doubt have been magically lifted.

My talking about what Stone Butches have done for me and meant to me does not mean the flow was all one-way; it means that in the spirit and intent of this thread as I understand it, we are speaking about ourselves, not about others. As I understand this thread, we are to speak about our own experiences--and that is what I am very plainly doing.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

While this thread is to celebrate the stone butch (and here I will also go on record that the term "stoner" is sort of offensive to me), let's not bestow upon them some elevated status or mantles of higher evolution.

Why not, if they have done the hard work that merits it?

Why not recognize those who have changed my life and healed my broken spirit as the wonderful people they are?

How could my being honest about the kind of Stone Butches and Transmen I am attracted to, the kind who have helped me so much along my way, the kind who have educated and inspired me, possibly harm anyone?

Why should I be dishonest, and pretend they are NOT wonderful people, when--speaking purely from my own experience--they ARE wonderful people?

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Which is not at all to diminish your personal experience of the clicking of all things that matter. You are fortunate to have that, and no one can take it.

I don't know how you meant this to come across, but it seems very patronizing to me. I hope I'm wrong about your intent. I actually very much hope I'm wrong about the intent of your entire post, as I don't like to think that you would assume such ignorance of our fellow posters--or of me.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Bit

There is any other possible way to interpret "what draws ME," than that it would be "in my experience"? I think that possibly you do the rest of the readers of this thread a disservice to assume they are unable to understand that I am talking about myself and my own experience, most especially since I have taken pains to make it plain that I am NOT talking about anyone else.



Why would anyone make such an assumption, Bent? Why wouldn't people who are reading this thread say to themselves, "well, look, Cathie is talking about the kind of people she is attracted to, Stone Butches and Transmen who happen to embody that kind of self-awareness and confidence"? Why would anyone reading this thread assume that all people are the same, and that if I have run into confident Stone Butches, then ipso facto all Stone Butches are confident?

Again, I think you are doing the readers of this thread a disservice by assuming their inability to understand that I am talking about my own experience--and I believe you are doing us all a disservice by assuming that anyone would think this is the sum total of my experience.



My talking about what Stone Butches have done for me and meant to me does not mean the flow was all one-way; it means that in the spirit and intent of this thread as I understand it, we are speaking about ourselves, not about others. As I understand this thread, we are to speak about our own experiences--and that is what I am very plainly doing.



Why not, if they have done the hard work that merits it?

Why not recognize those who have changed my life and healed my broken spirit as the wonderful people they are?

How could my being honest about the kind of Stone Butches and Transmen I am attracted to, the kind who have helped me so much along my way, the kind who have educated and inspired me, possibly harm anyone?

Why should I be dishonest, and pretend they are NOT wonderful people, when--speaking purely from my own experience--they ARE wonderful people?



I don't know how you meant this to come across, but it seems very patronizing to me. I hope I'm wrong about your intent. I actually very much hope I'm wrong about the intent of your entire post, as I don't like to think that you would assume such ignorance of our fellow posters--or of me.

You are free to take my post however suits you, though I had not one whit of patronizing intent.

Your statements alluded to your experiences, but can easily be read to apply to stone butches and transmen in general. The way your opening sentence is constructed implies not that it is true of only the stone butches and transmen that you have encountered, but that it is these particular qualities which have drawn you to stone butches and transmen (in general). That is a logical reading of the way you actually worded your sentence, which is why I phrased mine as a clarification.

I suspected that I knew what you meant, and that others might as well, but I wanted it to be damn clear, just as your response to me here has been infinitely more qualifying than your original post. Your original statements were far more general than these. Had you posted this way initially, I wouldn't have been compelled to say what I did. My reply had nothing to do with presumed ignorance, and everything to do with clarity. You have met some evolved individuals, but there is no correlation between their gender/sexual identity and their emotional evolution as a general condition. I simply wanted to make that very clear, otherwise, the implication is that others (with different identities) are less so (which I'm sure you would recognize as being offensive). If, as individuals, we are able to reach a state in which our emotional maturity and our gender/sexual identity are on parallel tracks, then we are fortunate creatures, indeed.

I do very much appreciate the opportunity to engage in this dialogue, thank you.

[Chazz]

Thank your for this post.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I've read this thread a little here and there, and have largely held off posting because:

1) I don't at this point in my life identify as stone butch, though there was a time in which I did.

This has been my experience. I identified as "stone butch" for 14 years, through two relationships, then this happened:

Originally Posted by sassy_girl

Hello Stoners...

I guess I am going against the grain here and saying I don't understand limiting your dating pool by what someone has wanted or wanted in sex. I could never not want to be with someone because of what they want or don't want sexually, I suppose if that would be a dealbreaker for me ( I can't even imagine) it would be different.

I guess I just don't see what is wrong with two people getting together and discovering what energy/magic/vibes they get off each other and rolling with it. The way I have been with one lover does not define how I will be with another lover.

It all just seems so predefined. I'm trying to understand I suppose.

Yep, that's what happened to me alright. My partner and I rolled with it and came out in a new place, together, and individually.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

One commonly held belief is that "stone butch" came about to refer to butches that were "stone cold butch;" the most butch among butches - those who were most masculine (and I pointedly state "masculine" not male).

This is the definition to which I have always held.

Ah, the hierarchy of butch-ness.... Agreed, that is a very common definition. I subscribed to it myself for many years.

I guess I'm an exception to that definition (assumption?). I look, behave, live, am taken for, butcher than butch, but I no longer ID as stone.

(I suspect there are a great many more butches like me than is commonly thought.)



But, back to this:

Originally Posted by sassy_girl

...I guess I just don't see what is wrong with two people getting together and discovering what energy/magic/vibes they get off each other and rolling with it. The way I have been with one lover does not define how I will be with another lover.

This is precisely what happened to me. Imagine my surprise !

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

This is the definition to which I have always held. It refers to a butch who is unwavering in their identity, and in their presentation of self; one who would never sacrifice their personal sense of comfort, well being and identity in order to bend to the wishes of others, whether seeking a job, dealing with family, or a sexual partner. This definition, for me, includes no particular reference to sex/sexuality, but allows for each stone butch to define for themselves what their comfort level is and how they are going to hold that line - in all aspects of their life. Technically, that means a stone butch could be quite "free" sexually, including open to anal penetration or oral sex, for example.

But not just stone butches - all butches. Oh yeah, and femmes, too.

Hierarchies suck.

[cuddlyfemme]

Good Morning all you wonderful and handsome Stone Butches!!!

[stonebutchinpa]

Originally Posted by cuddlyfemme

Good Morning all you wonderful and handsome Stone Butches!!!

Good afternoon Cuddly!

[cuddlyfemme]

Originally Posted by stonebutchinpa

Good afternoon Cuddly!

Hows it going? I was starting to think my post ran everyone out of here lol