It's Time to Boycott Arizona

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

*sigh*

Firstly, while both France and England had national ID cards during WW II only France kept it after the war, the English abolished theirs immediately following the war. As far as what happened in the nations conquered by the Germans--it was the Nazi's of COURSE it was not democratic.

As far as your second statement, what could you possibly mean by "we are all illegals if we do not bow down to these government protocols"? Are you saying that not going through a scanner or submitting to a pat-down somehow makes you undocumented? How's that? How could it *possibly* effect my citizenship status?

While this isn't the thread for it (and I'm happy to engage in a more full-bodied argument about the relative merits of the TSA full-body scanners) let me run this past you. So, we get rid of the scanners and we stop the pat downs. For reasons that I won't belabor at this moment, we do not profile either.

Sometime next year another group of enterprising young men from Saudi Arabia hijack a three or four aircraft out of LAX and fly them into the freeway at rush hour. What would your reaction be then, popcorn? Would you shrug and make some comments about omelets and eggs or would you be saying that the administration allowed it to happen and/or was too incompetent to stop it? The point I'm driving at, Popcorn, is that you can't have it all.

You can have (relatively) safe air travel.
You can have (relatively) unobtrusive security protocols.
You can have no security protocols.
You can have (relatively) unsafe air travel.
You can have obtrusive security protocols.

Pick the combination you like the most knowing that some of these options preclude others. For example, you cannot have no security protocols and safe air travel and this obtained LONG before those enterprising young men from Saudi Arabia hijacked airplanes one fine September morning.

Likewise, you can have any of the following:

No Latin American immigrants
Cheap lettuce
Expensive lettuce
Large numbers of Latin American immigrants

Again, certain options preclude other options. The minute you decide that you really don't want to pay $6.00 a head for lettuce you are tacitly choosing to have a large number of Latin American immigrants to pick the lettuce at wages that keep the prices depressed. The cost-of-living in the United States is, at present, artificially depressed in two areas--food and fuel. Absent migrant workers lettuce (and everything else) would quickly rush upward. Absent sweetheart deals with Saudi Arabia gas prices would move to where they 'should' be, which is around $9.00 to $10.00 a gallon. Your vacation or your night out with your honey are artificially cheaper than the market would otherwise predict in large part BECAUSE of undocumented workers.

Now, as a supporter of Labor, I would like to see a guest-worker program. The reason being is that if people can work over-the-table, they have rights. If they have rights, they will exercise them (or attempt to) which will raise the wages of those low-wage earners.

Cheers
Aj


Cheers
Aj

I totally agree with you, AJ...and I get what you are saying. Bring on the boycott!! Radical change begins with radical notions and I am wholeheartedly leading the pack (so to speak, of course ).

The film A Day Without A Mexican is a rather poorly acted satire based on life in California without migrant labor. Not a fabulous film but it did make me think about what life would be like without a menial labor force.

I am curious...given the artificial food and fuel deficit (artificial meaning?? we are lacking or there is a presumed/perceived lack??) what are your thoughts on empowering a more sustainable future. And by sustainable I mean something that can survive and flourish well into the next century.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Novelafemme

I totally agree with you, AJ...and I get what you are saying. Bring on the boycott!! Radical change begins with radical notions and I am wholeheartedly leading the pack (so to speak, of course ).

The film A Day Without A Mexican is a rather poorly acted satire based on life in California without migrant labor. Not a fabulous film but it did make me think about what life would be like without a menial labor force.

I am curious...given the artificial food and fuel deficit (artificial meaning?? we are lacking or there is a presumed/perceived lack??) what are your thoughts on empowering a more sustainable future. And by sustainable I mean something that can survive and flourish well into the next century.

By artificial, I mean this: if pure market forces were to prevail with the U.S. gas market gas would be closer to the $8 to $10 a gallon range. However, two factors conspire to keep gas prices in the United States in the $3 to $4 a gallon range: Saudi Arabia insists on doing oil sales in dollars, meaning that the price of oil is pegged to the price of the dollar. This keeps oil prices stable (relatively speaking) and lower than they would be if oil could be sold in the currency most advantageous to the seller. Secondly, the Saudis structure oil deals in a form that is advantageous for the United States.

With regard to food, both the price of transportation (oil/gas) and the price of farm labor (immigrants) makes the price of food lower than it otherwise would be. Imagine that gas prices were where they 'should' be (we'll call it $9 a gallon). Imagine also that farm workers were paid the prevailing minimum wage AND had to be covered by health insurance if they were full-time workers. That head of lettuce (or that evening out) would have all of that cost passed on to you. At present, iceberg lettuce at my local Safeway is $1.08 a head. That $1.00 head of lettuce should, if market forces prevailed, should probably be closer to a $5 or $6 head of lettuce but because of the factors above, it's much, much cheaper. Even if I'm wrong by half, we're *still* talking about that head of lettuce being 300% more expensive at market value.

As far as sustainable future--that's a hard one and I don't want to derail this thread too much. If you start a thread, though, I'll participate.

Cheers
Aj

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

By artificial, I mean this: if pure market forces were to prevail with the U.S. gas market gas would be closer to the $8 to $10 a gallon range. However, two factors conspire to keep gas prices in the United States in the $3 to $4 a gallon range: Saudi Arabia insists on doing oil sales in dollars, meaning that the price of oil is pegged to the price of the dollar. This keeps oil prices stable (relatively speaking) and lower than they would be if oil could be sold in the currency most advantageous to the seller. Secondly, the Saudis structure oil deals in a form that is advantageous for the United States.

With regard to food, both the price of transportation (oil/gas) and the price of farm labor (immigrants) makes the price of food lower than it otherwise would be. Imagine that gas prices were where they 'should' be (we'll call it $9 a gallon). Imagine also that farm workers were paid the prevailing minimum wage AND had to be covered by health insurance if they were full-time workers. That head of lettuce (or that evening out) would have all of that cost passed on to you. At present, iceberg lettuce at my local Safeway is $1.08 a head. That $1.00 head of lettuce should, if market forces prevailed, should probably be closer to a $5 or $6 head of lettuce but because of the factors above, it's much, much cheaper. Even if I'm wrong by half, we're *still* talking about that head of lettuce being 300% more expensive at market value.

As far as sustainable future--that's a hard one and I don't want to derail this thread too much. If you start a thread, though, I'll participate.

Cheers
Aj

Precisely what I thought. And I don't think it would be derailing the thread to actively explore the notion of sustainability as a result of empowerment. In my eyes the two go hand in hand in order to effect change.

Peace

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Novelafemme

Precisely what I thought. And I don't think it would be derailing the thread to actively explore the notion of sustainability as a result of empowerment. In my eyes the two go hand in hand in order to effect change.

Peace

Well, actually, there are a couple of things I would like to see done that are relevant here.

1) I, for one, will dance on the grave of the nation state. Was it an improvement over feudalism? Yes. Was it an improvement over the divine right of kings? Absolutely! Is it time for this dinosaur to stop moving? Probably so. The United States, Mexico and Canada form a 'natural' economic sphere. I would love to see all three nations functionally dissolve their borders, create one job market with a common set of labor laws (the ones MOST on the side of workers, thank you very much), a common set of environmental laws and a common currency. I think that regional alliances are the next natural progression until we can go to some kind of international Federalist state. (And yes, I'm talking about a single planetary government and before anyone says boo about biblical prophecies, I simply do not care. I don't think we should make public policy based upon multi-thousand year old tales, told around the fire by desert nomads and a single, common federal government on the model of the EU but for the whole planet makes sense to me.)

2) Achieving number 1 would allow us to move on to number 2. Corporations need to be put back on the leash. At present, the nation state *serves* the corporate state because if, say, Canada takes the whole idea of labor and environmental laws too seriously and the company in question is run by venal enough people, the corporation will just move to some other country where the labor laws are less in existence and the environmental regulations exist only in speech if at all. With only a single, Federal planetary government these corporate behemoths have nowhere to go, no where to hide.

3) We need to reset expectations. The idea that every quarter a company must grow, grow, grow is insane. There really ARE limits to growth, we need to learn to live within them.

4) The widespread dissemination and dispersion of scientific knowledge. More people, live longer and healthier lives because of science. In a state of nature, I was dead certainly by thirty-three. My appendix burst when I was 32. 100 years ago, I was dead. In 1999, I was in the hospital for about 36 hours and home for about 10 days. Wherever and whenever modern public health methods and medicine is introduced very predictable things happen--infant mortality drops, life span extends, women gain more power over their reproductive choices and thus their lives.

5) We need to reset expectations. I think we need to recognize that we need a more locally based economy. That may mean that in some places--Salt Lake City, for instance--you just can't get lobster. Maybe in Alaska, you just can't get beef. That means a return to regional cuisines.


The thing is, we may not have a choice in the matter. The die may already have been cast and Nature may impose limits we were neither intelligent enough or wise enough to put on ourselves.

Cheers
Aj