"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Blue_Daddy-O]

And Yes, you would be preachin' to the choir here! LoLoL! But good you threw out another example for Victoria's enlightenment and anyone else who has a limited definition of Transgendered!

Originally Posted by Metropolis

...and there are male ID butches who identify as lesbians and date other butches... and and and... variety is the spice of life eh?

Again welcome,
Metro

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I find it interesting that you acknowledge there's is a lot of butch femme lesbians on the site (and there is)... and then in the next breath use "weird" and "makes me all squicky"...

Perhaps since we all expect our ID's respected, we might extend the same kindness to others.

Met, I don't find Turasultana explaining "being called Lesbian makes me feel weird" to be a knock at being a Lesbian. It wouldn't be any different than me saying "being called a girl makes me feel all weird and freaky". Although, that wouldn't be my verbiage, I'm more likely to say, "It doesn't feel right to me". Yet it does make me feel weird and freaky.

Why does it feel disrespectful to you?

[QueenofQueens]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

And Yes, you would be preachin' to the choir here! LoLoL! But good you threw out another example for Victoria's enlightenment and anyone else who has a limited definition of Transgendered!






Met, I don't find Turasultana explaining "being called Lesbian makes me feel weird" to be a knock at being a Lesbian. It wouldn't be any different than me saying "being called a girl makes me feel all weird and freaky". Although, that wouldn't be my verbage, I'm more likey to say, "It doesn't feel right to me". Yet it does make me feel weird and freaky.

Why does it feel desrespectful to you?

Hey Blue, I know you're addressing Met, but as a lesbian I'd like to answer this too. I'll use Tura's post as an example below, but I'd like to make it clear that I'm not singling her out intentionally.
That said, there's a big difference between saying "I don't like chocolate" and saying "Chocolate is disgusting". There's an even bigger difference between saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a non specific context and saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a venue known to be frequented by chocolate lovers.
When a non lesbian says "Lesbianism is freaky or squicky" within a lesbian friendly venue where there are many lesbians who feel quite opposed to that sentiment, it's at best thoughtless and callous and at worst homophobic (whether it's an internal or external manifestation of homophobia is up for debate).
I have no problem with Tura's (or anyone else's) identity or gender expressions, nor their feelings about who they are within the context of their own lived experience. What is hurtful is how my gender identity and sexual preference are summarily dismissed via pejorative language. I see no viable reasons for any of us to define ourselves in negative terms, as that almost always occurs at someone else's expense.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by QueenofQueens

Hey Blue, I know you're addressing Met, but as a lesbian I'd like to answer this too. I'll use Tura's post as an example below, but I'd like to make it clear that I'm not singling her out intentionally.
That said, there's a big difference between saying "I don't like chocolate" and saying "Chocolate is disgusting". There's an even bigger difference between saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a non specific context and saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a venue known to be frequented by chocolate lovers.
When a non lesbian says "Lesbianism is freaky or squicky" within a lesbian friendly venue where there are many lesbians who feel quite opposed to that sentiment, it's at best thoughtless and callous and at worst homophobic (whether it's an internal or external manifestation of homophobia is up for debate).
I have no problem with Tura's (or anyone else's) identity or gender expressions, nor their feelings about who they are within the context of their own lived experience. What is hurtful is how my gender identity and sexual preference are summarily dismissed via pejorative language. I see no viable reasons for any of us to define ourselves in negative terms, as that almost always occurs at someone else's expense.

Originally Posted by turasultana

I'm femme, but i'd never refer to myself as a lesbian, my partner who is butch, would NEVER call himself a lesbian. It's weird just typing that. makes me all squicky....

I am interested to hear from anyone who identifies as a Lesbian who also finds the statement offensive. So Thank You for explaining to me how it makes you feel as well.

Yes, QueenofQueens, I completely understand when a person says that Lesbianism is disgusting, sick and perverted that this would be hurtful. The intent is derogatory, judgmental and prejudice. Although, I don't identify as a Lesbian this would be hurtful to me as well because there are many I love that do identify as a Lesbian and I have also identified as a Lesbian myself. But even if I didn't know a Lesbian or had never been one, it would still be hurtful to me to watch/hear/see a person put someone else down in this manner and not be accepting of another person's differences. And not be concerned with how their words would make someone else feel. I am not one to sit by and watch. I would have alot to say to anyone who would treat another person that way.

When I'm called a Lesbian it feels unnatural. It doesn't feel right. It feels weird. It's the same to me as being called a girl. Not because either are disgusting to me, but because I do not relate to being either one.

I would have asked Turasultana's intent before I assumed she was stating her feelings in a derogatory way.

If Turasultana feels similar to the way I do, it would be unfair for someone to automatically assume that because I don't like being called a Lesbian, that I find being one is disgusting or a negative.

When I read what Turasultana wrote, I could relate. As I'm sure there are others who do as well. And I'm sure there are also others who would take offense.

Where is the line drawn? Are we not allowed to say that being called a Lesbian makes us feel a negative emotion __________ (fill in the blank)?

QueenofQueens, do you feel that Turasultana was coming from a derogatory place, as if to call Lesbians disgusting?

Turasultana, maybe you could explain to use more of why you feel the way you do?

This is all so very interesting to me. The division and misunderstandings. I do believe it is very good for us to talk about it and to understand where we are all coming from. There is more I want to say...but my brain is getting very very tired and it's way past my bedtime and I can't write or think much more...LoL.

But I would like to continue this discussion tomorrow and really understand better.

[WILDCAT]

I SO feel that the recent "BUMP" in this thread was meant to be inflammatory.

Good luck folks, but please be careful to not be set up to turn on each other.

THAT is my queer GUT feeling here.

*Some things just seem to be MUCH TOO CLEVER in an attempt to "appear confused", ya know? I personally didn't appreciate the "directness" with/in the assumptions. Totally instigative in my way of thinking. (And disrespecting every one of us, queer, how we ID, transgengered, etc...)

PEACE
WILDCAT

[turasultana]

As I stated, and maybe I said it in a way that only made sense in my brain at midnite, but I just meant that it felt weird to ever use the word lesbian in relation to my partner who is totally not one as far as his identity. i didn't mean more than that. It was just felt disconcerting to me. i was being flip... bad word choice got misinterpreted. That is all.

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

I am interested to hear from anyone who identifies as a Lesbian who also finds the statement offensive. So Thank You for explaining to me how it makes you feel as well.

Yes, QueenofQueens, I completely understand when a person says that Lesbianism is disgusting, sick and perverted that this would be hurtful. The intent is derogatory, judgmental and prejudice. Although, I don't identify as a Lesbian this would be hurtful to me as well because there are many I love that do identify as a Lesbian and I have also identified as a Lesbian myself. But even if I didn't know a Lesbian or had never been one, it would still be hurtful to me to watch/hear/see a person put someone else down in this manner and not be accepting of another person's differences. And not be concerned with how their words would make someone else feel. I am not one to sit by and watch. I would have alot to say to anyone who would treat another person that way.

When I'm called a Lesbian it feels unnatural. It doesn't feel right. It feels weird. It's the same to me as being called a girl. Not because either are disgusting to me, but because I do not relate to being either one.

I would have asked Turasultana's intent before I assumed she was stating her feelings in a derogatory way.

If Turasultana feels similar to the way I do, it would be unfair for someone to automatically assume that because I don't like being called a Lesbian, that I find being one is disgusting or a negative.

When I read what Turasultana wrote, I could relate. As I'm sure there are others who do as well. And I'm sure there are also others who would take offense.

Where is the line drawn? Are we not allowed to say that being called a Lesbian makes us feel a negative emotion __________ (fill in the blank)?

QueenofQueens, do you feel that Turasultana was coming from a derogatory place, as if to call Lesbians disgusting?

Turasultana, maybe you could explain to use more of why you feel the way you do?

This is all so very interesting to me. The division and misunderstandings. I do believe it is very good for us to talk about it and to understand where we are all coming from. There is more I want to say...but my brain is getting very very tired and it's way past my bedtime and I can't write or think much more...LoL.

But I would like to continue this discussion tomorrow and really understand better.

[NJFemmie]

I would try not to find statements like that offensive.

But then again, it was found offensive when I have said "I can't be with someone who doesn't ID as a lesbian because I don't want to feel like I am in a heterosexual relationship."

It opened up a nasty can of ass biting sand worms.
AND I've got the bite marks to prove it.

Oh yeah, and I am a femme lesbian.

Mantra: Live and let live. I think if people spent less time defending and more time enjoying and learning each others differences, there would be less crossed lines.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by turasultana

As I stated, and maybe I said it in a way that only made sense in my brain at midnite, but I just meant that it felt weird to ever use the word lesbian in relation to my partner who is totally not one as far as his identity. i didn't mean more than that. It was just felt disconcerting to me. i was being flip... bad word choice got misinterpreted. That is all.

I didn't misunderstand turasultana, I just felt the language used could have been better chosen as not to create misunderstanding... as acknowledged here yourself. Perhaps some don't feel the subtle knock the way that someone who identifies as lesbian might from a statement such as that (more the "makes me all squicky" than the "weird" part). But anyway I thought QofQ explained that very well.

Just an FYI, these posts are not from me as a moderator, but as a BFP member who wishes we all (including myself) would be more careful when we casually use inflammatory words when speaking of other peoples ID's. We don't need to always agree or think alike (and that's good) but we can try to make everyone feel as welcome and relaxed as we'd want to feel ourselves.

Metro

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Wow there is a lot of education going on in this thread, glad to see more people posting

[QueenofQueens]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

I am interested to hear from anyone who identifies as a Lesbian who also finds the statement offensive. So Thank You for explaining to me how it makes you feel as well.

Yes, QueenofQueens, I completely understand when a person says that Lesbianism is disgusting, sick and perverted that this would be hurtful. The intent is derogatory, judgmental and prejudice. Although, I don't identify as a Lesbian this would be hurtful to me as well because there are many I love that do identify as a Lesbian and I have also identified as a Lesbian myself. But even if I didn't know a Lesbian or had never been one, it would still be hurtful to me to watch/hear/see a person put someone else down in this manner and not be accepting of another person's differences. And not be concerned with how their words would make someone else feel. I am not one to sit by and watch. I would have alot to say to anyone who would treat another person that way.

When I'm called a Lesbian it feels unnatural. It doesn't feel right. It feels weird. It's the same to me as being called a girl. Not because either are disgusting to me, but because I do not relate to being either one.

I would have asked Turasultana's intent before I assumed she was stating her feelings in a derogatory way.

If Turasultana feels similar to the way I do, it would be unfair for someone to automatically assume that because I don't like being called a Lesbian, that I find being one is disgusting or a negative.

When I read what Turasultana wrote, I could relate. As I'm sure there are others who do as well. And I'm sure there are also others who would take offense.

Where is the line drawn? Are we not allowed to say that being called a Lesbian makes us feel a negative emotion __________ (fill in the blank)?

QueenofQueens, do you feel that Turasultana was coming from a derogatory place, as if to call Lesbians disgusting?

Turasultana, maybe you could explain to use more of why you feel the way you do?

This is all so very interesting to me. The division and misunderstandings. I do believe it is very good for us to talk about it and to understand where we are all coming from. There is more I want to say...but my brain is getting very very tired and it's way past my bedtime and I can't write or think much more...LoL.

But I would like to continue this discussion tomorrow and really understand better.

Blue, I've been meaning to respond to this and only had the time to do so now.
I want to make my opinion and intentions crystal clear with regard to my previous post in this thread because I feel that you largely missed the point of what I said. I will enumerate my points to avoid further confusion and because I realize that a lot of ground has been covered in this thread.

1. I never believed that Tura was being intentionally hurtful.
2. People are capable of being insulting or hurtful without intending to do so, sometimes folks just act callously or thoughtlessly and need to be called on it.
3. When people feel the need to define themselves in negative terms, i.e. "I'm not lesbian, I'm not pro choice, I'm not a butch" and do so adamantly among people who do identify in those ways, the implication in their words can easily be read as pejorative by those who ARE what they decry they are NOT.


I realize some people have a lot of hurt attached to the word "lesbian" because of painful, personal experiences. Many, MANY of us as butches and femmes were wholesale rejected by the larger lesbian community or partners we cared for, simply because of how we interpret our queerness, myself included.

Some of us have chosen to embrace the identity of lesbian as an act of sheer defiance and as an open acknowledgment of our homosexuality. Some of us, instead, have chosen to reject the word. But I sincerely wonder, as a member of the former group, if you have chosen to reject the word "lesbian", and the identity, and are defining in negative terms, then what as a female bodied homosexual do you embrace in its stead? Have you truly made peace with the fact that you are homosexual? Are you okay with everything that being a female bodied person in relationship with another female bodied person manifests, entails and means? If not, then why not? These are hypothetical questions that I ponder and not directed toward any individual here.

For those who reject the identity "lesbian", I would ask for you all to think about how it would feel if you heard, for example, someone proclaiming, "I am NOT transensual, it squicks me out", or stone, or nesbian (not equating these words, just using them as examples), or whatever words you choose to embrace, simply in order to define yourselves. To me, it feels like coming out as a femme to the larger glbt community all fucking over again. I'm sick to death of having to defend and explain being a lesbian, and what that looks like presented by me, to other homosexuals especially.

If someone were to mistakenly presume that all b/f folks are transensual, for example, I (who am not transensual) do not feel the need to defend myself by breaking my id down in a way that would hurt those who are transensual. Isn't it hard enough for people to just move through the world as queer without hearing that their identities and sexual proclivities make other members of their community nauseous? That sort of judgment, couched in the safe haven of "personal opinion" feels secretly fascistic to me. Again, I want to know, why must anyone define themselves in negative terms?

Regardless of our choices regarding our identities, I think it behooves every single one of us to examine why we reject or embrace certain sexual descriptors, and sexual proclivities, to ensure that there is not the least trace of internalized homophobia or misogyny leading the way. Yes, I get that diversity is grand, and that all our triggers aren't tripped the same, and I say vive' le difference if it's a genuine expression of who you are. If not, taking a moment to face a truth that might make you uncomfortable, but which will ultimately help liberate your authentic self, is crucial to our evolution, individually and as a group. Examining our own potential homophobia and misogyny is as important an act of introspection as any regarding privilege or racism, especially within a community which is predominately queer and female bodied.

[Gemme]

QoQ, I value your thoughts very much and, while I'm sure Blue will get back with you (since it was directed towards Blue), I'd like to address a couple of things, if you don't mind.

Originally Posted by QueenofQueens

3. When people feel the need to define themselves in negative terms, i.e. "I'm not lesbian, I'm not pro choice, I'm not a butch" and do so adamantly among people who do identify in those ways, the implication in their words can easily be read as pejorative by those who ARE what they decry they are NOT.

Why is someone saying they are not something suddenly derogatory? I am not Native American but that does not mean that I am being derogatory towards those who are by saying that I am simply not. When did 'not' become a dirty word? If someone says that they are not Queer, I do not take offense to that. They are defining their own personal self; something I cannot do. I cannot tell them they are right or wrong. That's their determination to make, yes?

Maybe I am missing something but I just don't see it.

Some of us have chosen to embrace the identity of lesbian as an act of sheer defiance and as an open acknowledgment of our homosexuality. Some of us, instead, have chosen to reject the word. But I sincerely wonder, as a member of the former group, if you have chosen to reject the word "lesbian", and the identity, and are defining in negative terms, then what as a female bodied homosexual do you embrace in its stead? Have you truly made peace with the fact that you are homosexual? Are you okay with everything that being a female bodied person in relationship with another female bodied person manifests, entails and means? If not, then why not? These are hypothetical questions that I ponder and not directed toward any individual here.

I like the way you've worded these questions. It's easier to fit my thoughts around. I have some questions that have come from yours.

If I don't choose to embrace something, does that automatically mean I am rejecting it? Really? Have we and this world been reduced to black and white thinking? It must be this or that, with no inbetween or thinking outside of the box?

And does a female bodied person partnering with a female bodied but MALE or MASCULINE brained partner still fall under these parameters?

Does partnering with someone who is not female brained mean that I am somehow uneasy with homosexuality within myself? Does that mean that, if I were to identify as a lesbian, that I could ONLY partner with female bodied and female brained partners?

Regardless of our choices regarding our identities, I think it behooves every single one of us to examine why we reject or embrace certain sexual descriptors, and sexual proclivities, to ensure that there is not the least trace of internalized homophobia or misogyny leading the way. This is as important an act of introspection as any regarding privilege or racism, especially within a community which is predominately queer and female bodied.

Again, why must it be embrace or reject? Why can't something simply not apply to us?

Thanks for your thoughtful questions. My questions in response to yours are not in anger or frustration but I am genuinely confused.

[QueenofQueens]

Originally Posted by Gemme

QoQ, I value your thoughts very much and, while I'm sure Blue will get back with you (since it was directed towards Blue), I'd like to address a couple of things, if you don't mind.
Of course not Gemme.
My answers below in my beloved Courier.


Why is someone saying they are not something suddenly derogatory? I am not Native American but that does not mean that I am being derogatory towards those who are by saying that I am simply not. When did 'not' become a dirty word? If someone says that they are not Queer, I do not take offense to that. They are defining their own personal self; something I cannot do. I cannot tell them they are right or wrong. That's their determination to make, yes?
Maybe I am missing something but I just don't see it


The answer here lies within the question you asked. You are not Native American, nor am I, but would you at any time feel the need to qualify your identity as an American citizen by exclaiming that fact? Furthermore, do you make it a habit to describe yourself to people based upon all the things you aren't?
Normally, I'll say something like "I'm a Femme dyke" or "I'm gay" or "I'm Cuban", in order to give folks an idea about my identity if the subject comes up (which it does rarely and briefly offline). I never say "I'm not a gay man" or "I'm not a transensual femme" or "I'm Caribbean, but I'm certainly not Puerto Rican". To me, this seems rather nihilistic and divisive.

Not, isn't a dirty word, in and of itself. Everyone certainly has the right to make distinctions when false assumptions are made about who they are. The offense for me lies when that distinction is made with pejorative or rude language, or when it is expressed without sensitivity for those present.
I wouldn't say "I am NOT heterosexual because to me it squicks me out" around my straight friends as if being hetero was anathema. To me, it just isn't a kind way of expressing who I am.



I like the way you've worded these questions. It's easier to fit my thoughts around. I have some questions that have come from yours.

If I don't choose to embrace something, does that automatically mean I am rejecting it? Really? Have we and this world been reduced to black and white thinking? It must be this or that, with no in between or thinking outside of the box?

To your first question the answer is absolutely yes. If you make a statement denying that you are lesbian, then you are by definition rejecting that identity for yourself. As to your second question, I'm not a proponent of polarized thought at all. To me fluidity means just that, allowing oneself to embrace and travel among, many identities at once. Logically that allows little room for rejection. I have never said that a person couldn't be both lesbian and ____ and ____. But those of you who have rejected lesbian identity, seem to have assigned it a very narrow definition, and therefore, by shutting it out from the realm of possibility, in my opinion, are much nearer to black and white thinking than you believe yourself to be.
True fluidity needs to neither embrace nor reject any identity because it is capable of mercurial movement among all or none of them AND contrary to popular belief, fluidity and taxonomy can coexist peacefully.

And does a female bodied person partnering with a female bodied but MALE or MASCULINE brained partner still fall under these parameters?

Does partnering with someone who is not female brained mean that I am somehow uneasy with homosexuality within myself? Does that mean that, if I were to identify as a lesbian, that I could ONLY partner with female bodied and female brained partners?

These are questions that only you can answer for yourself. I could never, nor would I ever want to, make those determinations for someone.
If you're implying that my questions were somehow a veiled accusation, or an implication of having to choose "one or the other", I can assure you that they were not.
I can tell you that I fully embrace being a homosexual woman with all that entails. Because of that, I embrace all attendant terminology, as an act of both pride and defiance. When I was with a man, I still thought of myself as a dyke, largely because that is my authentic self. To me, identity is not determined by who we partner with, nor was I trying to imply that it is for those who do not claim "lesbian".
I asked several questions in this paragraph, some related to how we express our sexuality with another person, and some related to our own personal journeys to self actualization. For me, embracing the fact that I'm a lesbian, was a part of that journey. I just wonder how those who claim female homosexuality, while pairing that claim with the contradiction of rejecting the term lesbian, achieve peace. I was really being sincere, I'm trying to figure out how y'all come to terms with your homosexuality, since our paths to it are obviously very different.

Again, why must it be embrace or reject? Why can't something simply not apply to us?

We absolutely can proceed from a place of neutrality with regard to what doesn't apply to us. However, what I have witnessed here and elsewhere with regard to this admittedly sensitive topic, hardly passes as neutral from where I stand. If you (the general you) have no attachment to the lesbian id, then why qualify your identity by denying it?

Thanks for your thoughtful questions. My questions in response to yours are not in anger or frustration but I am genuinely confused.

Thank you too for engaging with me in a very thoughtful manner. I love and appreciate these types of discussions. For reals.

Anyway, I hope this clears up some of your confusion 'cause I'm kinda tired an' shit.

ETA: If one is pan- or omnisexual, that terminology is inclusive of all forms of hetero and homo sexuality. If one embraces pan- or omnisexuality as their identity, there is no logical reason to reject ANY sexual identity.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by QueenofQueens

The answer here lies within the question you asked. You are not Native American, nor am I, but would you at any time feel the need to qualify your identity as an American citizen by exclaiming that fact? Furthermore, do you make it a habit to describe yourself to people based upon all the things you aren't?
Normally, I'll say something like "I'm a Femme dyke" or "I'm gay" or "I'm Cuban", in order to give folks an idea about my identity if the subject comes up (which it does rarely and briefly offline). I never say "I'm not a gay man" or "I'm not a transensual femme" or "I'm Caribbean, but I'm certainly not Puerto Rican". To me, this seems rather nihilistic and divisive.

Not, isn't a dirty word, in and of itself. Everyone certainly has the right to make distinctions when false assumptions are made about who they are. The offense for me lies when that distinction is made with pejorative or rude language, or when it is expressed without sensitivity for those present.
I wouldn't say "I am NOT heterosexual because to me it squicks me out" around my straight friends as if being hetero was anathema. To me, it just isn't a kind way of expressing who I am.

Thank you QoQ! You put in words what I've been trying to express.

I had thought, yesterday, about posting something I manifestly don't believe just as an example: 'I'm not trans. I would never want anyone to mistake me for trans. I would be upset if someone said I was trans!" Now, if I said that wouldn't it sound like I was saying "trans is something I want as far away from me as possible". You can almost hear the "get it off me" even in this venue.

My beautiful wife, Belly, is bisexual. When I first came out, I identified as bisexual (until my *second* lesbian relationship because at that point I realized that unless something VERY interesting happened, I was never going to have another heterosexual relationship) but I would not say "I'm not bi! I wouldn't want someone to mistake me for bi because that just squicks me out." Firstly, such a statement would, in fact, be an insult to the woman I love and it would *hurt* her. I know this because I have seen the hurt in her eyes when lesbians make very unkind comments about bisexuals (who, it seems, are still considered acceptable whipping girls in the community). Secondly, my identity is not really defined by who I was but am no longer but by who I *am*.

Being a black woman, I don't define myself as a not-white woman. I define myself as a *black* woman. Being a geekgrrl, I don't define myself as a not-mainstream but as a geek. Being a butch, I don't define myself as a not-femme but as a butch. Being a lesbian I don't define myself as not-anymore-bisexual or a not-anymore-heterosexual but as a lesbian or, alternatively, a dyke.

You bring up an interesting point in your statement "I'm Cuban but I'm certainly not Puerto Rican". I have heard Caribbean blacks make a point of saying that they are NOT American blacks--as if that were not something a decent brown-skinned person would want to be. If I were to make a point of saying I'm not Jamaican, one would be somewhat justified in saying "hey, Aj, what's so wrong with Jamaicans that you're so emphatically NOT one". Now, I've had people ask me if I was from Jamaica (because, don't ya know, ALL black people with dreadlocks are from Jamaica) and I've corrected them by saying "no, I'm an American born in America". But that's correcting a misinterpretation. I've had people ask "what country are you from" and I'll tell them the same thing, I'm an American who was born here. Again, correcting a misinterpretation. I've even had people say "why don't you go back to Africa" and I've corrected them by pointing out that given the reality of the transatlantic slave trade, it's likely that my bloodline has been here longer than their bloodline since my bloodline HAD to have hit these shores by 1809 (when the slave trade across the Atlantic ended) while their bloodline could easily have showed up on Ellis Island in 1910. But, again, that's not saying "I'm not African" it's simply correcting historical ignorance.

There's a difference and I've been so caught up in the emotions of this topic (yes, Virginia, I DO have emotions! LOL) that I haven't been able to put it into something coherent until I read your post. So thank you.

Cheers
Aj

[BullDog]

How people identify is of course entirely up to them. No one need identify as a lesbian. We are not recruiting.

However, the narrow minded views of what a lesbian is or is capable of expressing in terms of her sexuality and identity that are quite often expressed in butch femme circles feels like internalized homophobia and anti-woman to me. A woman who is attracted to another woman - lesbian- or a woman having sex with another woman, just simply isn't enough- it's limited, less evolved, something people need to be clear that they are NOT. Whereas queer/genderqueer/masculine identified/male within a female body and those attracted to such people are the cutting edge, revolutionary, evolved genders.

By the way I am not sure why people use masculine identified to refer to themselves as not identifying as woman and/or female. Butches who identify with being female are masculine. Women can and are masculine as well. My masculine pronoun is She.