Obama and the tax cut issue

betenoire · 12-10-2010, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I am SOOOOOO disappointed with prez Obama. I knew during the campaign that he wouldn't be able to keep every promise he made, cause thats the reality of all presidents. But come on, he is spineless! I can't imagine any issue he is willing to risk his presidency over.

On a happier note, Bernie Sanders led a Democrat filibuster of the proposed bill today. Check it out:

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_new...al-fillibuster

I'm watching it live right now. It's kinda sexy.

linkyloo

MsTinkerbelly · 12-10-2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betenoire

I'm watching it live right now. It's kinda sexy.

linkyloo

I watched an interview Racheal Maddow did with Senator Sanders a week or so ago; I would vote for him if he ran for President! He has a whole lot of common sense that most of them seem to be lacking these days.

betenoire · 12-10-2010, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

I watched an interview Racheal Maddow did with Senator Sanders a week or so ago; I would vote for him if he ran for President! He has a whole lot of common sense that most of them seem to be lacking these days.

Plus his accent is kind of sexy.

No seriously, I'm loving his accent. I'm still watching. Oh, and he does make sense and isn't a jackass.

(I'll probably mute cspan for a few minutes so I can watch him on Maddow, though.)

katsarecool · 12-10-2010, 03:36 PM

Being the President is the hardest job in the world!!! That said, I stand behind President Obama in his decision. Why you ask? The behaviors of the Republicans in the last few weeks especially will without a doubt bite them in the ass in 2012.

Republicans have flat out said they would not be renewing Federal Unemployment for the nine million Americans and their dependents. And their extended families who are bound to be angry at their behavior and not likely to forget this slight and abuse of power. They have also made disparaging remarks repeatedly about those who are out of work. And have referred repeatedly to Unemployment Insurance as Entitlement Programs which it is not. Employers pay for this insurance each month while processing payroll. So it is not a handout as Republicans would wish all Americans to believe.

Obama's decision was a very intelligent one and in addition it clearly demonstrates his concern for the middle class in this country. Which is what we all want in a President; a person who shows compassion and the ability to be able to perceive how he can best help the majority of our citizens. Thats what I want.

The Republicans will feel the sting of their DADT actions as well. I feel the citizens will also remember the Republicans vicious manovers in pushing through the tax cuts for the rich!!!!

All of the behaviours will rise to the surface during the campaign of 2012 and I hope many of us participate in getting the word out.

The Democrats who are opposed to his actions are for the most part postulating for their constituents; it is mostly for show. They ought to be careful of their behaviors as well.

There are some financial experts on sites such as Huffington Post who are expressing similar opinions as mine.

katsarecool · 12-10-2010, 03:42 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hoyt-h..._b_794452.html

At first blush, President Obama's tax cut deal -- trading an extension of tax cuts for the wealthy in return for an extension of unemployment benefits for millions of Americans -- is a setback for Obama and the Democrats. But a closer look at the reality of the deal makes this a clear win for Obama, and probably for Democrats in the long run. Even better, it appears that Obama has finally hit his stride and is now beating the Republicans at their own game.

Granted, it is outrageous to be subsidizing tax breaks for millionaires in the midst of the Great Recession -- not to mention adding to the deficit. But let's look at the facts for a moment -- both of the policy and the politics. First, on the policy front, the tax cut deal amounts to a $900 billion dollar stimulus package at a time when most economists -- notably progressive economists like Paul Krugman -- are calling for continued stimulus to promote economic growth. Can you imagine the reaction from the Republicans and the Tea Partiers -- not to mention Blue Dog Democrats -- if Obama had proposed a $900 billion stimulus package? But that is exactly what the Republicans have agreed to.

This was clearly a case where the White House outfoxed the Republicans by leveraging their own inconsistent ideology against them. At the very same time that the Republicans are screaming about government spending and about lowering the deficit, they were stonewalling any attempt to take away big tax handouts to the wealthiest Americans. Okay, said Obama, have it your way. We'll let you have your tax cut extension in return for extending assistance to the millions of unemployed Americans who desperately need our help. Fine, said the Republicans, perhaps gloating over their tax cut victory, but not realizing that theirs was nothing more than a Pyrrhic victory. The net result -- another $900 billion stimulus package. Try explaining that to the Tea Partiers.

When you look at the politics of the deal, Obama's victory over the Republicans seems even more impressive. Another $900 billion in stimulus funds will certainly help to hasten the recovery, which is already on a slow uptick. By 2012, the economy should be on the upswing, if not in full recovery, which will only help Obama's re-election prospects. Clearly, the single most important factor in the re-election of any presidential incumbent is the state of the economy, and this week's tax cut deal makes Obama's re-election chances look considerably brighter. (For the sake of the country, we must address the deficit for the long term. But I would much rather have rational, progressive approach to deficit cutting than the knee-jerk, inconsistent Tea Party sloganeering).

As for the Republicans, the tax cut deal rips open the inconsistencies in both their politics and their policies. From a policy standpoint, they are screaming about the deficit and government spending while they push for tax cuts for the richest Americans at the expense of millions of the unemployed. In any universe, that is both bad politics and bad policy. Their position will come back to haunt them as they try to explain their position not only to the Republican base, but especially to independents in the future.

Perhaps more importantly -- from the perspective of political optics -- the public will recognize before long that the Republicans cut a very bad deal, and that Obama was particularly adroit in outmaneuvering them. In fact, this deal may be the same kind of important turning point as the Gingrich shutdown of the government in 1995. Looking back, the tax cut deal may be regarded as the point when Obama finally regained his stride.

From a purely political perspective, the opposition that Obama is experiencing from Democrats in Congress is actually a positive for the White House. When the rest of the country -- especially the independents -- see Obama getting flack from his own party for the deal, he will rise in their estimation as someone who is willing to take on his own base. In truth, when the outlines of this Obama victory become clear, it is likely that most Democrats in Congress and around the country will realize that Obama has regained his mojo and outfoxed the Republicans at their own game.

betenoire · 12-10-2010, 03:48 PM

extended tax cuts for the top 2% IS NOT A 900 billion dollar stimulus package. extended tax cuts for the top 2% IS NOT going to create jobs for the bottom 50%. trickle-down economics DOES NOT work.

Kobi · 12-10-2010, 04:59 PM

Kat,

I have sat here trying to see the rationale as you and the article are seeing it. But I cant get my head around it.

To me, I dont see this as a Democratic victory or Obama hitting his stride. For someone who campaigned on the promise of change, I see him as perpetuating the politics as usual at every turn. For someone who was so charasmatic, he cannot even unify his own party or get them to back him.

This "compromise" isnt a compromise. For Obama to get unemployment extended, he had to bend over and take it up the hiney in the form of letting the rich continue to hoard more and more of their money. And, he hung the country out to dry by saddling us with more debt. That doesnt sound like compromise to me. That sounds like giving in to extortion.

The Republicans do not see maintaining their income perks as a bail out in any way shape or form. They see it as solidifying their entitlements. They see extending unemployment as a bail out. Perspective is everything in life.

Essentially, the Republican party has endeared itself to their constituents with this move by reinforcing the proportional discrepancy between income and taxes that those with money enjoy. Proportionally, you and I pay more in taxes than the rich do. Catering to the desires of those with money, while throwing peanuts to the rest is just business as usual.

The economic recovery is not likely to be as smooth or quick a process as people think. We used to have an independent economy and could act as needed to get ourselves out of a jam. We don't have as much freedom or independence in a global economy. When we do a bailout, we are, in many cases, accumulating a lot of debt for international corporations - not American corporations. There is a new economic reality smacking us in the face. There is a new workforce picture slapping us in the face and its not a pretty one.

And DADT? Within the realm of the new reality, exactly how important is THAT going to be at election time to the general public? I cant see it meaning much.

I dont see a victory here or a stride here. I am very disappointed in what I am seeing happen within the Democratic party. I am very disappointed in how ineffective Obama is becoming. Heck, he is making Kerry look decisive.

And, I am very concerned as to how all this bickering, catering, and bending over is going to affect the lives of everyday people. I just cant see a really positive side to it.

katsarecool · 12-10-2010, 10:14 PM

I still feel 100 percent confident in our President's ability to continue to improve the economy, work for the good of the common people, extricate our troops out of war and harm's way and defeat any candidate the Repugs throw at him.

I do get how frustrating all these events are. We all lived through eight years of pure hell under the Bush administration. I thought it would never come to an end and stayed angry for his entire term. And I had high hopes that our situation would improve quickly but it soon became obvious that the Republicans and the Tea Baggers were engaged in a battle to make sure Obama failed including many dirty tricks of their bad behaviors. I am amazed that rather than work with him to help our country succed they engaged in all out warfare.

I hope when Nov. 2012 rolls around the voters are better educated and that our economy is at a greater recovery phase.

Nat · 12-10-2010, 03:45 PM

I feel pretty hopeless about the state of the country at the moment. I think this really defeated my hope. I feel like going into hibernation now. My feelings on Obama regularly change. I think he's a human being, that he ran - as most politicians do - on empty promises. I think he's better than McCain. I don't think he does anything based on his own convictions or conscience alone, and I guess I am starting to personally dislike him. But I will still be voting for him in two years and I hope things look better by then.

katsarecool · 12-10-2010, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nat

I feel pretty hopeless about the state of the country at the moment. I think this really defeated my hope. I feel like going into hibernation now. My feelings on Obama regularly change. I think he's a human being, that he ran - as most politicians do - on empty promises. I think he's better than McCain. I don't think he does anything based on his own convictions or conscience alone, and I guess I am starting to personally dislike him. But I will still be voting for him in two years and I hope things look better by then.

Don't loose hope!!! Things will turn around for the better!!! I have been through many recessions in my life and can feel consoled at the ability of our country to bounce back. I began voting in 1968 if that tells you anything (besides the fact I am OLD!!! LOL)

12-10-2010, 03:36 PM	#4
katsarecool Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Woman Relationship Status: Single Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Between Athens and Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,236 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,849 Thanked 1,765 Times in 734 Posts Rep Power: 323366	Being the President is the hardest job in the world!!! That said, I stand behind President Obama in his decision. Why you ask? The behaviors of the Republicans in the last few weeks especially will without a doubt bite them in the ass in 2012. Republicans have flat out said they would not be renewing Federal Unemployment for the nine million Americans and their dependents. And their extended families who are bound to be angry at their behavior and not likely to forget this slight and abuse of power. They have also made disparaging remarks repeatedly about those who are out of work. And have referred repeatedly to Unemployment Insurance as Entitlement Programs which it is not. Employers pay for this insurance each month while processing payroll. So it is not a handout as Republicans would wish all Americans to believe. Obama's decision was a very intelligent one and in addition it clearly demonstrates his concern for the middle class in this country. Which is what we all want in a President; a person who shows compassion and the ability to be able to perceive how he can best help the majority of our citizens. Thats what I want. The Republicans will feel the sting of their DADT actions as well. I feel the citizens will also remember the Republicans vicious manovers in pushing through the tax cuts for the rich!!!! All of the behaviours will rise to the surface during the campaign of 2012 and I hope many of us participate in getting the word out. The Democrats who are opposed to his actions are for the most part postulating for their constituents; it is mostly for show. They ought to be careful of their behaviors as well. There are some financial experts on sites such as Huffington Post who are expressing similar opinions as mine. __________________

12-10-2010, 03:42 PM	#5
katsarecool Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Woman Relationship Status: Single Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Between Athens and Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,236 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,849 Thanked 1,765 Times in 734 Posts Rep Power: 323366	http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hoyt-h..._b_794452.html At first blush, President Obama's tax cut deal -- trading an extension of tax cuts for the wealthy in return for an extension of unemployment benefits for millions of Americans -- is a setback for Obama and the Democrats. But a closer look at the reality of the deal makes this a clear win for Obama, and probably for Democrats in the long run. Even better, it appears that Obama has finally hit his stride and is now beating the Republicans at their own game. Granted, it is outrageous to be subsidizing tax breaks for millionaires in the midst of the Great Recession -- not to mention adding to the deficit. But let's look at the facts for a moment -- both of the policy and the politics. First, on the policy front, the tax cut deal amounts to a $900 billion dollar stimulus package at a time when most economists -- notably progressive economists like Paul Krugman -- are calling for continued stimulus to promote economic growth. Can you imagine the reaction from the Republicans and the Tea Partiers -- not to mention Blue Dog Democrats -- if Obama had proposed a $900 billion stimulus package? But that is exactly what the Republicans have agreed to. This was clearly a case where the White House outfoxed the Republicans by leveraging their own inconsistent ideology against them. At the very same time that the Republicans are screaming about government spending and about lowering the deficit, they were stonewalling any attempt to take away big tax handouts to the wealthiest Americans. Okay, said Obama, have it your way. We'll let you have your tax cut extension in return for extending assistance to the millions of unemployed Americans who desperately need our help. Fine, said the Republicans, perhaps gloating over their tax cut victory, but not realizing that theirs was nothing more than a Pyrrhic victory. The net result -- another $900 billion stimulus package. Try explaining that to the Tea Partiers. When you look at the politics of the deal, Obama's victory over the Republicans seems even more impressive. Another $900 billion in stimulus funds will certainly help to hasten the recovery, which is already on a slow uptick. By 2012, the economy should be on the upswing, if not in full recovery, which will only help Obama's re-election prospects. Clearly, the single most important factor in the re-election of any presidential incumbent is the state of the economy, and this week's tax cut deal makes Obama's re-election chances look considerably brighter. (For the sake of the country, we must address the deficit for the long term. But I would much rather have rational, progressive approach to deficit cutting than the knee-jerk, inconsistent Tea Party sloganeering). As for the Republicans, the tax cut deal rips open the inconsistencies in both their politics and their policies. From a policy standpoint, they are screaming about the deficit and government spending while they push for tax cuts for the richest Americans at the expense of millions of the unemployed. In any universe, that is both bad politics and bad policy. Their position will come back to haunt them as they try to explain their position not only to the Republican base, but especially to independents in the future. Perhaps more importantly -- from the perspective of political optics -- the public will recognize before long that the Republicans cut a very bad deal, and that Obama was particularly adroit in outmaneuvering them. In fact, this deal may be the same kind of important turning point as the Gingrich shutdown of the government in 1995. Looking back, the tax cut deal may be regarded as the point when Obama finally regained his stride. From a purely political perspective, the opposition that Obama is experiencing from Democrats in Congress is actually a positive for the White House. When the rest of the country -- especially the independents -- see Obama getting flack from his own party for the deal, he will rise in their estimation as someone who is willing to take on his own base. In truth, when the outlines of this Obama victory become clear, it is likely that most Democrats in Congress and around the country will realize that Obama has regained his mojo and outfoxed the Republicans at their own game. __________________

12-10-2010, 03:48 PM	#6
betenoire Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Satan in a Sunday Hat Preferred Pronoun?: Maow Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: The Chemical Valley Posts: 4,086 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,312 Thanked 8,739 Times in 2,565 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	extended tax cuts for the top 2% IS NOT A 900 billion dollar stimulus package. extended tax cuts for the top 2% IS NOT going to create jobs for the bottom 50%. trickle-down economics DOES NOT work. __________________ bête noire \bet-NWAHR\, noun: One that is particularly disliked or that is to be avoided.

12-10-2010, 04:59 PM	#7
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,636 Times in 7,642 Posts Rep Power: 21474861	Kat, I have sat here trying to see the rationale as you and the article are seeing it. But I cant get my head around it. To me, I dont see this as a Democratic victory or Obama hitting his stride. For someone who campaigned on the promise of change, I see him as perpetuating the politics as usual at every turn. For someone who was so charasmatic, he cannot even unify his own party or get them to back him. This "compromise" isnt a compromise. For Obama to get unemployment extended, he had to bend over and take it up the hiney in the form of letting the rich continue to hoard more and more of their money. And, he hung the country out to dry by saddling us with more debt. That doesnt sound like compromise to me. That sounds like giving in to extortion. The Republicans do not see maintaining their income perks as a bail out in any way shape or form. They see it as solidifying their entitlements. They see extending unemployment as a bail out. Perspective is everything in life. Essentially, the Republican party has endeared itself to their constituents with this move by reinforcing the proportional discrepancy between income and taxes that those with money enjoy. Proportionally, you and I pay more in taxes than the rich do. Catering to the desires of those with money, while throwing peanuts to the rest is just business as usual. The economic recovery is not likely to be as smooth or quick a process as people think. We used to have an independent economy and could act as needed to get ourselves out of a jam. We don't have as much freedom or independence in a global economy. When we do a bailout, we are, in many cases, accumulating a lot of debt for international corporations - not American corporations. There is a new economic reality smacking us in the face. There is a new workforce picture slapping us in the face and its not a pretty one. And DADT? Within the realm of the new reality, exactly how important is THAT going to be at election time to the general public? I cant see it meaning much. I dont see a victory here or a stride here. I am very disappointed in what I am seeing happen within the Democratic party. I am very disappointed in how ineffective Obama is becoming. Heck, he is making Kerry look decisive. And, I am very concerned as to how all this bickering, catering, and bending over is going to affect the lives of everyday people. I just cant see a really positive side to it. __________________

12-10-2010, 10:14 PM	#8
katsarecool Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Woman Relationship Status: Single Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Between Athens and Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,236 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,849 Thanked 1,765 Times in 734 Posts Rep Power: 323366	I still feel 100 percent confident in our President's ability to continue to improve the economy, work for the good of the common people, extricate our troops out of war and harm's way and defeat any candidate the Repugs throw at him. I do get how frustrating all these events are. We all lived through eight years of pure hell under the Bush administration. I thought it would never come to an end and stayed angry for his entire term. And I had high hopes that our situation would improve quickly but it soon became obvious that the Republicans and the Tea Baggers were engaged in a battle to make sure Obama failed including many dirty tricks of their bad behaviors. I am amazed that rather than work with him to help our country succed they engaged in all out warfare. I hope when Nov. 2012 rolls around the voters are better educated and that our economy is at a greater recovery phase. __________________

12-10-2010, 03:45 PM	#9
Nat Senior Member How Do You Identify?: bigender (DID System) Preferred Pronoun?: he/him or alter-specific Relationship Status: Unavailable Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Central TX Posts: 3,537 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,047 Thanked 13,971 Times in 2,591 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	I feel pretty hopeless about the state of the country at the moment. I think this really defeated my hope. I feel like going into hibernation now. My feelings on Obama regularly change. I think he's a human being, that he ran - as most politicians do - on empty promises. I think he's better than McCain. I don't think he does anything based on his own convictions or conscience alone, and I guess I am starting to personally dislike him. But I will still be voting for him in two years and I hope things look better by then. __________________ I'm a fountain of blood. In the shape of a girl. - Bjork What is to give light must endure burning. -Viktor Frankl