Obama and the tax cut issue

betenoire · 12-10-2010, 03:48 PM

extended tax cuts for the top 2% IS NOT A 900 billion dollar stimulus package. extended tax cuts for the top 2% IS NOT going to create jobs for the bottom 50%. trickle-down economics DOES NOT work.

Kobi · 12-10-2010, 04:59 PM

Kat,

I have sat here trying to see the rationale as you and the article are seeing it. But I cant get my head around it.

To me, I dont see this as a Democratic victory or Obama hitting his stride. For someone who campaigned on the promise of change, I see him as perpetuating the politics as usual at every turn. For someone who was so charasmatic, he cannot even unify his own party or get them to back him.

This "compromise" isnt a compromise. For Obama to get unemployment extended, he had to bend over and take it up the hiney in the form of letting the rich continue to hoard more and more of their money. And, he hung the country out to dry by saddling us with more debt. That doesnt sound like compromise to me. That sounds like giving in to extortion.

The Republicans do not see maintaining their income perks as a bail out in any way shape or form. They see it as solidifying their entitlements. They see extending unemployment as a bail out. Perspective is everything in life.

Essentially, the Republican party has endeared itself to their constituents with this move by reinforcing the proportional discrepancy between income and taxes that those with money enjoy. Proportionally, you and I pay more in taxes than the rich do. Catering to the desires of those with money, while throwing peanuts to the rest is just business as usual.

The economic recovery is not likely to be as smooth or quick a process as people think. We used to have an independent economy and could act as needed to get ourselves out of a jam. We don't have as much freedom or independence in a global economy. When we do a bailout, we are, in many cases, accumulating a lot of debt for international corporations - not American corporations. There is a new economic reality smacking us in the face. There is a new workforce picture slapping us in the face and its not a pretty one.

And DADT? Within the realm of the new reality, exactly how important is THAT going to be at election time to the general public? I cant see it meaning much.

I dont see a victory here or a stride here. I am very disappointed in what I am seeing happen within the Democratic party. I am very disappointed in how ineffective Obama is becoming. Heck, he is making Kerry look decisive.

And, I am very concerned as to how all this bickering, catering, and bending over is going to affect the lives of everyday people. I just cant see a really positive side to it.

katsarecool · 12-10-2010, 10:14 PM

I still feel 100 percent confident in our President's ability to continue to improve the economy, work for the good of the common people, extricate our troops out of war and harm's way and defeat any candidate the Repugs throw at him.

I do get how frustrating all these events are. We all lived through eight years of pure hell under the Bush administration. I thought it would never come to an end and stayed angry for his entire term. And I had high hopes that our situation would improve quickly but it soon became obvious that the Republicans and the Tea Baggers were engaged in a battle to make sure Obama failed including many dirty tricks of their bad behaviors. I am amazed that rather than work with him to help our country succed they engaged in all out warfare.

I hope when Nov. 2012 rolls around the voters are better educated and that our economy is at a greater recovery phase.

katsarecool · 12-10-2010, 11:22 PM

Very interesting news conference from former President Clinton today...http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_clinton

atomiczombie · 12-11-2010, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katsarecool

Very interesting news conference from former President Clinton today...http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_clinton

Clinton be damned, he was way too compromising with republicans during his presidency too. This deal stinks and it is an insult to everyone who is making less than 250k per year. The extreme economic injustice of it is horrific, and Obama should be calling the Republican's bluff. Pure and simple.

Soon · 08-01-2011, 09:42 AM

U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

“Historically and internationally, the U.S. can’t be categorized as anything other than a low-tax country,” remarked Gordon Betcherman, an economist and professor at the University of Ottawa’s school of international development and global studies.

“Either Americans don’t realize their economy is taxed less than other major economies, or they just have a different standard of what an appropriate tax level is,” said Prof. Betcherman, who spent a decade at the World Bank in Washington.

...

For decades now, the U.S. has increased spending, but hasn’t ratcheted up taxes to pay for bigger government – the military, health care, pensions and the like. The country has been generating tax revenue equal to roughly 18 per cent of its economy for a generation, but spending has climbed steadily to nearly 25 per cent of GDP, from roughly 16 per cent in 1965. The results are huge deficits, and more than $14-trillion (U.S.) of debt.

...

“Tax increases are the only way to ensure that high-income households pay a fair share of the deficit burden,” Mr. Marr said. “Without higher taxes as part of the fiscal-reform package, middle- and low-income households, which tend to feel spending cuts most acutely, will end up bearing almost all of the burden.”

Most of the rest of the developed world – Canada included – has managed to bear higher tax burdens for decades, without grinding their economies into the ground. Economists say even an economically weakened U.S. could cope with a heavier tax load.

The total tax burden on Americans, as a percentage of gross domestic product, stood at 24 per cent in 2009 – lower than it was in 1965 and still falling. That compares to 31.1 per cent in Canada, 34.3 per cent in Britain, 42 per cent in France, 37 per cent in Germany and 43.5 per cent in Italy. The Japanese, Australians and South Koreans all pay significantly more.

The United States is the only major country without a national value-added tax and its sales taxes are lowest in the OECD. Likewise, U.S. fuel and sin taxes are at the bottom among rich countries. And generous tax breaks mean many businesses and individuals pay few taxes, placing a heavy burden on a relatively narrow tax base.

Kobi · 08-03-2011, 01:30 PM

Thanks for this info How Soon.

Within the scheme of things, overall and comparatively speaking, we do pay less overall taxes per person than many other countries. What the graph doesnt show is the disparity in what those taxes include.

Hard to equate US taxes with Denmarks when they use taxes to provide health care and higher education for all- among other things, while we dont. I am suspecting if we add in what the average US citizen pays for what other countries provide thru their tax base, there may not be much of a difference.

Also, us everyday folks, pay more in taxes, percentage wise in relation to our incomes than those in higher income brackets. I always remember an interview Warren Buffit gave where he chuckled how his sectretary paid more in taxes percentage wise i.e. close to if not more than 35% of her income, while he as a multi-billionaire didnt come close to paying that percentage of his income.

To me, it boils down to what is fair, minus all the misleading marketing. I am tired of hearing how we have to provide taxpayer dollars to industries making billions in profit a year. I get tired of hearing how we cant "overtax" the wealthy cuz they are the ones providing jobs and sustaining the economy. And, if we tick them off, they might take their toys and outsource the job elsewhere

I get tired of the billions we send to foreign countrties year after year without any appreciable change of their part to become self sustaining. A helping hand now and then is nice but to consistently and continuously dole of billions and billions we have to borrow is kind of unwise. Check out this breakdown - might be accurate, might be flawed, hard to find official stuff -
http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/poli...oreign-aid.htm

It gets tiring when politicians want to (maybe) balance the budget on the backs of everyday folks with little to spare while John Kerry can splurge on a 7 million dollar boat which he moors out of the state he represents so he can avoid the piddly tax on it.

There are real class/haves/havenots issues that are effectively sidestepped in budget talks because the very people who are deciding this stuff are trying to protect themselves, financially, and those who line their pockets. It may be 2011, but the good old boy network is alive, well and thriving.

Sadly, we the voters, allow ourselves to fooled by the marketing and advertising strategies that are used to obscure the real issues and to deflect attention away from the real issues.

And, it is so much more complicated than that. There is a warped kind of thinking that starts at the top and filters its way down. And it is done in such a way that those of us down here fight amongst ourselves rather than taking the fight up the ladder to where it belongs. Someday, maybe, we will stop shooting ourselves in the foot.

Just my take on things for today.

12-10-2010, 03:48 PM	#1
betenoire Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Satan in a Sunday Hat Preferred Pronoun?: Maow Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: The Chemical Valley Posts: 4,086 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,312 Thanked 8,740 Times in 2,566 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	extended tax cuts for the top 2% IS NOT A 900 billion dollar stimulus package. extended tax cuts for the top 2% IS NOT going to create jobs for the bottom 50%. trickle-down economics DOES NOT work. __________________ bête noire \bet-NWAHR\, noun: One that is particularly disliked or that is to be avoided.

12-10-2010, 04:59 PM	#2
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,617 Times in 7,640 Posts Rep Power: 21474860	Kat, I have sat here trying to see the rationale as you and the article are seeing it. But I cant get my head around it. To me, I dont see this as a Democratic victory or Obama hitting his stride. For someone who campaigned on the promise of change, I see him as perpetuating the politics as usual at every turn. For someone who was so charasmatic, he cannot even unify his own party or get them to back him. This "compromise" isnt a compromise. For Obama to get unemployment extended, he had to bend over and take it up the hiney in the form of letting the rich continue to hoard more and more of their money. And, he hung the country out to dry by saddling us with more debt. That doesnt sound like compromise to me. That sounds like giving in to extortion. The Republicans do not see maintaining their income perks as a bail out in any way shape or form. They see it as solidifying their entitlements. They see extending unemployment as a bail out. Perspective is everything in life. Essentially, the Republican party has endeared itself to their constituents with this move by reinforcing the proportional discrepancy between income and taxes that those with money enjoy. Proportionally, you and I pay more in taxes than the rich do. Catering to the desires of those with money, while throwing peanuts to the rest is just business as usual. The economic recovery is not likely to be as smooth or quick a process as people think. We used to have an independent economy and could act as needed to get ourselves out of a jam. We don't have as much freedom or independence in a global economy. When we do a bailout, we are, in many cases, accumulating a lot of debt for international corporations - not American corporations. There is a new economic reality smacking us in the face. There is a new workforce picture slapping us in the face and its not a pretty one. And DADT? Within the realm of the new reality, exactly how important is THAT going to be at election time to the general public? I cant see it meaning much. I dont see a victory here or a stride here. I am very disappointed in what I am seeing happen within the Democratic party. I am very disappointed in how ineffective Obama is becoming. Heck, he is making Kerry look decisive. And, I am very concerned as to how all this bickering, catering, and bending over is going to affect the lives of everyday people. I just cant see a really positive side to it. __________________

12-10-2010, 10:14 PM	#3
katsarecool Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Woman Relationship Status: Single Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Between Athens and Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,236 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,849 Thanked 1,765 Times in 734 Posts Rep Power: 323367	I still feel 100 percent confident in our President's ability to continue to improve the economy, work for the good of the common people, extricate our troops out of war and harm's way and defeat any candidate the Repugs throw at him. I do get how frustrating all these events are. We all lived through eight years of pure hell under the Bush administration. I thought it would never come to an end and stayed angry for his entire term. And I had high hopes that our situation would improve quickly but it soon became obvious that the Republicans and the Tea Baggers were engaged in a battle to make sure Obama failed including many dirty tricks of their bad behaviors. I am amazed that rather than work with him to help our country succed they engaged in all out warfare. I hope when Nov. 2012 rolls around the voters are better educated and that our economy is at a greater recovery phase. __________________

12-10-2010, 11:22 PM	#4
katsarecool Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Woman Relationship Status: Single Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Between Athens and Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,236 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,849 Thanked 1,765 Times in 734 Posts Rep Power: 323367	Very interesting news conference from former President Clinton today...http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_clinton __________________

08-01-2011, 09:42 AM	#6
Soon Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: femme Relationship Status: attached Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: . Posts: 6,896 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 29,046 Thanked 13,094 Times in 3,386 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	Taxes need to be raised U.S.: In state of denial over taxes? “Historically and internationally, the U.S. can’t be categorized as anything other than a low-tax country,” remarked Gordon Betcherman, an economist and professor at the University of Ottawa’s school of international development and global studies. “Either Americans don’t realize their economy is taxed less than other major economies, or they just have a different standard of what an appropriate tax level is,” said Prof. Betcherman, who spent a decade at the World Bank in Washington. ... For decades now, the U.S. has increased spending, but hasn’t ratcheted up taxes to pay for bigger government – the military, health care, pensions and the like. The country has been generating tax revenue equal to roughly 18 per cent of its economy for a generation, but spending has climbed steadily to nearly 25 per cent of GDP, from roughly 16 per cent in 1965. The results are huge deficits, and more than $14-trillion (U.S.) of debt. ... “Tax increases are the only way to ensure that high-income households pay a fair share of the deficit burden,” Mr. Marr said. “Without higher taxes as part of the fiscal-reform package, middle- and low-income households, which tend to feel spending cuts most acutely, will end up bearing almost all of the burden.” Most of the rest of the developed world – Canada included – has managed to bear higher tax burdens for decades, without grinding their economies into the ground. Economists say even an economically weakened U.S. could cope with a heavier tax load. The total tax burden on Americans, as a percentage of gross domestic product, stood at 24 per cent in 2009 – lower than it was in 1965 and still falling. That compares to 31.1 per cent in Canada, 34.3 per cent in Britain, 42 per cent in France, 37 per cent in Germany and 43.5 per cent in Italy. The Japanese, Australians and South Koreans all pay significantly more. The United States is the only major country without a national value-added tax and its sales taxes are lowest in the OECD. Likewise, U.S. fuel and sin taxes are at the bottom among rich countries. And generous tax breaks mean many businesses and individuals pay few taxes, placing a heavy burden on a relatively narrow tax base.

08-03-2011, 01:30 PM	#7
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,617 Times in 7,640 Posts Rep Power: 21474860	Thanks for this info How Soon. Within the scheme of things, overall and comparatively speaking, we do pay less overall taxes per person than many other countries. What the graph doesnt show is the disparity in what those taxes include. Hard to equate US taxes with Denmarks when they use taxes to provide health care and higher education for all- among other things, while we dont. I am suspecting if we add in what the average US citizen pays for what other countries provide thru their tax base, there may not be much of a difference. Also, us everyday folks, pay more in taxes, percentage wise in relation to our incomes than those in higher income brackets. I always remember an interview Warren Buffit gave where he chuckled how his sectretary paid more in taxes percentage wise i.e. close to if not more than 35% of her income, while he as a multi-billionaire didnt come close to paying that percentage of his income. To me, it boils down to what is fair, minus all the misleading marketing. I am tired of hearing how we have to provide taxpayer dollars to industries making billions in profit a year. I get tired of hearing how we cant "overtax" the wealthy cuz they are the ones providing jobs and sustaining the economy. And, if we tick them off, they might take their toys and outsource the job elsewhere I get tired of the billions we send to foreign countrties year after year without any appreciable change of their part to become self sustaining. A helping hand now and then is nice but to consistently and continuously dole of billions and billions we have to borrow is kind of unwise. Check out this breakdown - might be accurate, might be flawed, hard to find official stuff - http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/poli...oreign-aid.htm It gets tiring when politicians want to (maybe) balance the budget on the backs of everyday folks with little to spare while John Kerry can splurge on a 7 million dollar boat which he moors out of the state he represents so he can avoid the piddly tax on it. There are real class/haves/havenots issues that are effectively sidestepped in budget talks because the very people who are deciding this stuff are trying to protect themselves, financially, and those who line their pockets. It may be 2011, but the good old boy network is alive, well and thriving. Sadly, we the voters, allow ourselves to fooled by the marketing and advertising strategies that are used to obscure the real issues and to deflect attention away from the real issues. And, it is so much more complicated than that. There is a warped kind of thinking that starts at the top and filters its way down. And it is done in such a way that those of us down here fight amongst ourselves rather than taking the fight up the ladder to where it belongs. Someday, maybe, we will stop shooting ourselves in the foot. Just my take on things for today.