Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[Sachita]

June mentioned that not everyone is raised the same or has the same perception. This is very true. Living in the south it blows my mind what people deem as acceptable treatment of animals. It was only this year they passed a law forbidding dogs to be tied. I keep flyers in my van and won't think twice about knocking on a door or raising hell in the defense of a helpless animal. I wouldn't even leave my pig without an insulated stall, plenty of hay and heat lamp in 30 degree weather but you have a whole lot of people who think an old dog house is just fine.

I board dogs. Most of you know this and on one of my forms is a release for emergency treatment. Some people put 1500.00 others 100.00. There is no amount of money when it comes to my dogs. I can't support breeding and have lots of friends who spend thousands of dollars on dogs when there are so many homeless animals. I'm not passing judgement just proving that we all have a different mindset, HOWEVER in the case of Mr. Vick it was clearly abuse no matter how you slice that pie.

Now this makes me think of a very good vegan friend who wants to breed race horses. She doesnt eat animals because morally thinks its cruel. This rattled the fuck out of me. I asked her if she ever did any research on animal abuse in horse breed/racing. Also why she felt it was ok to train an animal for a sport that supports an even bigger problem "gambling". People should be allowed to do what they want but is it ok to allow an animal to be used in a sport for gambling? Is it ok to train a work animal to be a service dog or herd animals? These are all clearly questions someone needs to ask and rather then choosing an answer that suits your agenda people should be more conscious when it comes to animals. Once my friend did her research she was floored. She had no idea but honestly she turned a blind eye, saw what suited her interest and not in the best interest of the whole picture involving horses.

The passion i'm displaying right now is not about Obama. Medusa is right... he;s the first one that actually did anything and it wasn't all lipservice. He walked into a major mess and still actually did something. I admit I was skeptical. BUT as someone else put- I want to see a democrat in office no matter what. My agenda here right now is fueled by yet another Michael Vick media show and that enough is enough. He should be punished. Laws should be tightened in the case of animal rights. Plain and simple. instead homeowners are having insurance canceled or must get rid of a beloved pet. Dog boarding facilities (not mine) won't take pit bulls or the insurance to take them or any aggressive breed is too high. So let's have another dose of this M.Vick media parade.

don't forgive him. put all these mother fuckers in jail. lol seriously. maybe then it will stop

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Sachita

Now this makes me think of a very good vegan friend who wants to breed race horses. She doesnt eat animals because morally thinks its cruel. This rattled the fuck out of me. I asked her if she ever did any research on animal abuse in horse breed/racing. Also why she felt it was ok to train an animal for a sport that supports an even bigger problem "gambling". People should be allowed to do what they want but is it ok to allow an animal to be used in a sport for gambling? Is it ok to train a work animal to be a service dog or herd animals? These are all clearly questions someone needs to ask and rather then choosing an answer that suits your agenda people should be more conscious when it comes to animals. Once my friend did her research she was floored. She had no idea but honestly she turned a blind eye, saw what suited her interest and not in the best interest of the whole picture involving horses.

I don't know about gambling and won't waste a lot of time on that subject. But as far as using animals as working animals--herding, etc.--yes I think that is absolutely acceptable. I own a sheepdog, it is clear that his instincts are to herd. Particularly with the animals that we have co-evolved with and that we have bred into their modern forms (dogs, cats, horses, chickens, etc.) we absolutely should continue with employing them in the ways we bred them to be employed. We, as a species, created the modern dog and most of our dogs would not, in point of fact, do well if humans disappeared. Dogs need humans at this point. Anyone who has lived with a dog knows that we have created a breed that wants to socialize with us and is sensitively tuned to human facial expressions and vocal subtleties.

The passion i'm displaying right now is not about Obama. Medusa is right... he;s the first one that actually did anything and it wasn't all lipservice. He walked into a major mess and still actually did something. I admit I was skeptical. BUT as someone else put- I want to see a democrat in office no matter what. My agenda here right now is fueled by yet another Michael Vick media show and that enough is enough. He should be punished. Laws should be tightened in the case of animal rights. Plain and simple. instead homeowners are having insurance canceled or must get rid of a beloved pet. Dog boarding facilities (not mine) won't take pit bulls or the insurance to take them or any aggressive breed is too high. So let's have another dose of this M.Vick media parade.

How long of a prison sentence does he have to serve? He was *already* punished.

don't forgive him.

Sorry, I just can't sign on to the idea that yet ANOTHER black man should spend the rest of his natural days behind bars or be utterly unable to make any kind of living because he ran afoul of the law. We do that quite enough already, how many black men have to be locked up for very large parts of their lives before America is satisfied that it has done enough? He did 23 months in prison--not some county lock up but *prison*. How long does he have to serve? Let's also keep in mind that the ONLY reason he didn't serve longer is because he is a celebrity. The next time you're out around town, take a look at a random black man, now imagine him convicted of the same crime that Mr. Vick committed and imagine what his prison sentence would look like. We're talking a minimum of 5 to 10 years. Like I said, America is already what I consider overzealous and unbounded in its enthusiasm for locking up black men for the term of their natural lives. I'm not sure that Mr. Vick should have to rejoin the 850,000 black men already in prison. (That's one in every nine.)

Cheers
Aj

[Sachita]

sorry typing one-handing lol

yes I agree with animals that work and treated properly.

and I also think you're right that he was punished and it should be enough, right? I agree with this but I am just exhausted at the media on this. I'm overly sensitive and had a knee jerk reaction. He did his time and we, even the president can move on. I have not done the research so forgive but I'd like to see Vick and Obama working together on setting a strong example. Now that would get a hell yeah from me but honestly I doubt I will ever be able to forgive him for what he allowed to happen to helpless animals. No ever.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I don't know about gambling and won't waste a lot of time on that subject. But as far as using animals as working animals--herding, etc.--yes I think that is absolutely acceptable. I own a sheepdog, it is clear that his instincts are to herd. Particularly with the animals that we have co-evolved with and that we have bred into their modern forms (dogs, cats, horses, chickens, etc.) we absolutely should continue with employing them in the ways we bred them to be employed. We, as a species, created the modern dog and most of our dogs would not, in point of fact, do well if humans disappeared. Dogs need humans at this point. Anyone who has lived with a dog knows that we have created a breed that wants to socialize with us and is sensitively tuned to human facial expressions and vocal subtleties.



How long of a prison sentence does he have to serve? He was *already* punished.



Sorry, I just can't sign on to the idea that yet ANOTHER black man should spend the rest of his natural days behind bars or be utterly unable to make any kind of living because he ran afoul of the law. We do that quite enough already, how many black men have to be locked up for very large parts of their lives before America is satisfied that it has done enough? He did 23 months in prison--not some county lock up but *prison*. How long does he have to serve? Let's also keep in mind that the ONLY reason he didn't serve longer is because he is a celebrity. The next time you're out around town, take a look at a random black man, now imagine him convicted of the same crime that Mr. Vick committed and imagine what his prison sentence would look like. We're talking a minimum of 5 to 10 years. Like I said, America is already what I consider overzealous and unbounded in its enthusiasm for locking up black men for the term of their natural lives. I'm not sure that Mr. Vick should have to rejoin the 850,000 black men already in prison. (That's one in every nine.)

Cheers
Aj

[julieisafemme]

Here is an update on some of the dogs from Vicks property who were lucky enough to end up at Best Friends.

http://www.bestfriends.org/vickdogs/

Obama still has my vote. I don't though understand what would drive him to use this case to highlight the issues ex-cons face when coming out of prison.

[Mister Bent]

Bear with me, because I'm on cold meds and my brain isn't cooperating fully.

The OP was framed around Obama's endorsement of the notion that the Philadelphia Eagles gave an ex-con a "second chance" and that in some way perhaps Michael Vick has turned his life around.

Tangential dialog has revolved around whether or not Vick is repentant and whether redemption is possible. Because the issue involves dogs, it is one fraught with emotion, in addition to the political ramifications. I am passionate about dogs. I have worked in rescue, including the recent fostering of a pit bull terrier.

I agree with Organic, from a political standpoint, this is a sideshow meant to distract us. As far as whether Vick truly regrets what he did, outside of how it sidelined his life and career, how can we ever really know? I don't believe we can.

I also agree that he deserves a chance to work, to support his family, pay off his attorneys, but not in a job where men are so often elevated to hero status. Not many ex-cons get out of prison and make millions. Not many can afford to pay their outstanding legal fees. Not many could have afforded lawyers like Vick's.

These discussions about Vick always leave me thinking the same thing, which is that while Vick's crimes were heinous, the larger issue is the mentality - the psychopathy behind them. What people seem to not understand is that the kind of brutality Vick sanctioned and actively participated in is the thing of which we should be wary. He is more than a criminal, he is an abuser. I feel the same is true of the players Bulldog listed, including Ben Roethlisberger, quarterback of my beloved Steelers.

This type of behavior is rarely a one time incident. Whether culturally formed or otherwise, it speaks of a mind wired to accept brutal behavior as possible and perhaps even necessary. It's beyond simply the issue of animal cruelty to me.

I wish Obama hadn't said it, but he did, so fuck the politics. Vick didn't hold up a convenience store, he's not simply an ex-con. He engaged in systematic abuse, of which he took a hands on role. I simply do not hold to the belief that abusers change.

[Nat]

Maybe football is a sport where being an abuser is advantageous to the game.

Maybe subjecting yourself and your own body to injury and ritualized violence as a career - and for the entertainment of others - makes life seem cheap.

Reading about what he did - I tend to think he's wrong in the head. But maybe America is wrong in the head for deifying sports figures in the first place. Sacrificing your body for money is a strange trade - why is it glorious when a man does it?

[SnackTime]

Originally Posted by Sachita

I board dogs. Most of you know this and on one of my forms is a release for emergency treatment. Some people put 1500.00 others 100.00. There is no amount of money when it comes to my dogs. I can't support breeding and have lots of friends who spend thousands of dollars on dogs when there are so many homeless animals. I'm not passing judgement just proving that we all have a different mindset, HOWEVER in the case of Mr. Vick it was clearly abuse no matter how you slice that pie.

Now this makes me think of a very good vegan friend who wants to breed race horses. She doesnt eat animals because morally thinks its cruel. This rattled the fuck out of me. I asked her if she ever did any research on animal abuse in horse breed/racing. Also why she felt it was ok to train an animal for a sport that supports an even bigger problem "gambling". People should be allowed to do what they want but is it ok to allow an animal to be used in a sport for gambling? Is it ok to train a work animal to be a service dog or herd animals? These are all clearly questions someone needs to ask and rather then choosing an answer that suits your agenda people should be more conscious when it comes to animals. Once my friend did her research she was floored. She had no idea but honestly she turned a blind eye, saw what suited her interest and not in the best interest of the whole picture involving horses.

The passion i'm displaying right now is not about Obama. Medusa is right... he;s the first one that actually did anything and it wasn't all lipservice. He walked into a major mess and still actually did something. I admit I was skeptical. BUT as someone else put- I want to see a democrat in office no matter what. My agenda here right now is fueled by yet another Michael Vick media show and that enough is enough. He should be punished. Laws should be tightened in the case of animal rights. Plain and simple. instead homeowners are having insurance canceled or must get rid of a beloved pet. Dog boarding facilities (not mine) won't take pit bulls or the insurance to take them or any aggressive breed is too high. So let's have another dose of this M.Vick media parade.

don't forgive him. put all these mother fuckers in jail. lol seriously. maybe then it will stop

In my honest opinion, training a work animal to be a service animal or herder is not even close to be on the same level as what is being talked about in this thread. I have an Australian shepherd and it is in her nature to herd anything and everything (ask anyone that has ever met her...LOL).

I know there are at least a few counties here in Tennessee that have banned the pit bull breed. A few weeks ago, one of my friends told me that her son had to get rid of a pit bull (he found or it was given to him) because their homeowner's insurance.

[katsarecool]

Not much left to be said about this story as it pretty well has been covered here. As much as I love animals I am sticking to my support of our President and will be voting for him again in 2012!

[MsDemeanor]

in this mI don't feel that it is appropriate for any President to single out any player in this manner during that player's season and in the middle of an MVP race. Call and meet teams when they win a championship or break a record (go UConn Women!!) or individual athletes after they win a medal - yep, that's part of the fun part of a President's job. Shoot hoops with whatever ego-inflated overpaid basketball he likes in the off season - fine, whatever, pardon my eye roll. Single out one player like that in the middle of the season and in the middle of MVP voting - wrong.

Comparing a wealthy black man's reduced sentence and instant hire in to a wealthy profession to what any non-famous black man would have suffered in the same situation ("level playing field" my ass) - clueless.

[suebee]

So far in this thread we've talked about rehabilitation, redemption, the inordinate number of black men that go to prison - and serve more time in prison than a white man would, whether or not some of us would vote for Obama after having taken the actions he did in regard to Vick, whether or not it was appropriate that he do this before the season is over, whether or not the matter concerning the President is a deliberate distraction from other political issues..... ALL valid issues.

Here's what I think about when I hear the name Michael Vick:
quote:

Dogs that didn't fight well were beaten, drowned, shot and even electrocuted by Vick and his associates, according to court records.

Thought it's nearly impossible to know the extent of the emotional and physical abuse these dogs endured, in some cases it's apparent.

One dog, Georgia, had all 42 of her teeth pulled. Caregivers believe it was to prevent her from attacking male dogs during forced breeding.

"We don't know who did it. We assume it's because she was such a valuable breeding dog," McMillian said. "Very often females will not accept males in breeding and will attack."
end quote

I'll add that a dog that has it's teeth pulled or ground down is often a bait dog. That's not a sparring partner. That's a bait dog. Believe me, this description doesn't even BEGIN to describe what happened to these poor animals.

Pit bulls are lovely creatures. Yet many municipalities have banned them. At a great many shelters pitties are euthanized simply for being pitties. Why? Because the dog fighting industry has tainted the reputation of the breed to the extent that it's considered poisonous to insurance companies, landlords, peace officers, and many "shelters".

That's what I think of when I think of Michael Vick. According to the justice system he's paid for his crime. He's served time in prison, and made certain amends. I've already said that I haven't seen him say anything that indicates to me that he has stepped out of the culture that he was immersed in and had an epiphone: "no creature deserves to be abused". I just haven't seen that. I'm not in the man's head, but if he's making public statements to rehabilitate his image, well you'd think that a new-found appreciation for the intrinsic rights of other creatures would be FRONT AND CENTRE, if indeed it were there.

If this were a child abuser I doubt he would have so easily slipped back into the role of hero. WE - our SOCIETY, has created the problem of over-population of companion animals. We therefore have the responsibility to take care of these animals. That includes - IMHO - not so easily forgetting the suffering and death that this man is responsible for. And CERTAINLY so easily handing him back the magic wand that makes him a rich privileged hero of the professional sports world.

Sue

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by SnackTime

In my honest opinion, training a work animal to be a service animal or herder is not even close to be on the same level as what is being talked about in this thread. I have an Australian shepherd and it is in her nature to herd anything and everything (ask anyone that has ever met her...LOL).

I know there are at least a few counties here in Tennessee that have banned the pit bull breed. A few weeks ago, one of my friends told me that her son had to get rid of a pit bull (he found or it was given to him) because their homeowner's insurance.

I think animals and human working together is a beautiful thing IF its humane, makes the animal happy and safe. I have no problem with this.