Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by suebee

Let's make a comparison. Bully has brought up the topic of abuse of women. Would you support a team that re-hired a quarterback that had beat up his wife or girlfriend? What about if he had beaten up HUNDREDS of women? What if he'd tortured them, had a "rape machine" so that they could be immobilized for sexual intercourse, electrocuted them, and then killed them when they were no longer of use to him? THIS is the magnitude of Vick's crimes. I don't use the same paint brush for everyone - I don't boycott every man who has a criminal record. But I'd be willing to make an exception for the likes of Mr. Vick.

Suebee...I get what you're saying, but I really don't think we can compare humans and animals...I really don't.

We employ horrible, barbaric acts against animals in the process of raising them and slaughtering them for meat...and it isn't even considered a crime.

We feel differently (as a culture) about dogs than we do about cows or turkeys or pigs...so we criminalize those acts. And, no, I'm not objecting to that...I think those acts are rightly classified as criminal.

But, honestly, to compare forced breeding of dogs (which we do all the time with all kinds of animals) to the rape of women? Sorry...it doesn't fly for me.

The rape of a woman, to me, is infinitely more serious than the forced breeding of an animal...as horrible as that may be.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Suebee...I get what you're saying, but I really don't think we can compare humans and animals...I really don't.

We employ horrible, barbaric acts against animals in the process of raising them and slaughtering them for meat...and it isn't even considered a crime.

We feel differently (as a culture) about dogs than we do about cows or turkeys or pigs...so we criminalize those acts. And, no, I'm not objecting to that...I think those acts are rightly classified as criminal.

But, honestly, to compare forced breeding of dogs (which we do all the time with all kinds of animals) to the rape of women? Sorry...it doesn't fly for me.

The rape of a woman, to me, is infinitely more serious than the forced breeding of an animal...as horrible as that may be.

Just making a comparison Jo. It's obvious we as a species are going to be more affected by what happens to our own. However it doesn't in any way make what happened right. Though most of us - to take June's example at the beginning of the thread - would most certainly save our child before we saved an animal if we could only do one - some of us believe that animals have every right to be protected from harm. Laws may be made by man for man, but animals should have the same RIGHT to protection as we do. If we are such an evolved species we should be able to care about and for more than just our own.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by suebee

Just making a comparison Jo. It's obvious we as a species are going to be more affected by what happens to our own. However it doesn't in any way make what happened right. Though most of us - to take June's example at the beginning of the thread - would most certainly save our child before we saved an animal if we could only do one - some of us believe that animals have every right to be protected from harm. Laws may be made by man for man, but animals should have the same RIGHT to protection as we do. If we are such an evolved species we should be able to care about and for more than just our own.

I get that Suebee...and I'm not trying to pick on you by any means. I totally agree that what Vick did was barbaric, and criminal, and should be punished.

I've got a couple things going on in my head about this thread though....

First, Vick was convicted and punished. We may or may not agree with the judge's decision...but that's a separate issue. I do believe that once people have served their sentence, then they need to be given an opportunity to rebuild their lives and not be stigmatized forever.

Second, I tend to stay out of race discussions here because...as a white person...I get that I don't get the reality of what it's like to be a person of color in our (or any) society. However, I totally get that we lock up POC in this society at a disgusting rate....and that white (men usually) who are convicted of far worse acts get a slap on the wrist or a fine. So, our tendency to label ex-convicts as somehow "less than" the rest of us impacts POC far more than it does whites as a group.

Third, I do love animals....and I have a houseful of them at any given time. However, I've also been involved in the raising of animals for food most of my life....having lived and worked on a dairy, raised beef cattle (in Australia not the US), had an ex who worked in a slaughterhouse, etc. I truly think we need to extend our protection and humane treatment to all animals....and think that dogs get an inordinate amount of our attention while cattle and poultry and pigs are treated in a pretty horrific manner. (And, no, I'm not vegetarian or vegan and don't object to raising and slaughtering animals for food....but do believe that we can be at least humane in the process).

And fourth, I'm with Snow. I put children before animals...every time. I'm astounded at a culture that defends animals and ignores the needs of children (and we do).

[suebee]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I get that Suebee...and I'm not trying to pick on you by any means. I totally agree that what Vick did was barbaric, and criminal, and should be punished.

I've got a couple things going on in my head about this thread though....

First, Vick was convicted and punished. We may or may not agree with the judge's decision...but that's a separate issue. I do believe that once people have served their sentence, then they need to be given an opportunity to rebuild their lives and not be stigmatized forever.

Second, I tend to stay out of race discussions here because...as a white person...I get that I don't get the reality of what it's like to be a person of color in our (or any) society. However, I totally get that we lock up POC in this society at a disgusting rate....and that white (men usually) who are convicted of far worse acts get a slap on the wrist or a fine. So, our tendency to label ex-convicts as somehow "less than" the rest of us impacts POC far more than it does whites as a group.

Third, I do love animals....and I have a houseful of them at any given time. However, I've also been involved in the raising of animals for food most of my life....having lived and worked on a dairy, raised beef cattle (in Australia not the US), had an ex who worked in a slaughterhouse, etc. I truly think we need to extend our protection and humane treatment to all animals....and think that dogs get an inordinate amount of our attention while cattle and poultry and pigs are treated in a pretty horrific manner. (And, no, I'm not vegetarian or vegan and don't object to raising and slaughtering animals for food....but do believe that we can be at least humane in the process).

And fourth, I'm with Snow. I put children before animals...every time. I'm astounded at a culture that defends animals and ignores the needs of children (and we do).

Oh, I think we're doing a pretty good job of ignoring the needs of children, animals, seniors..... There's certainly enough to go around!

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Suebee...I get what you're saying, but I really don't think we can compare humans and animals...I really don't.We employ horrible, barbaric acts against animals in the process of raising them and slaughtering them for meat...and it isn't even considered a crime.

We feel differently (as a culture) about dogs than we do about cows or turkeys or pigs...so we criminalize those acts. And, no, I'm not objecting to that...I think those acts are rightly classified as criminal.

But, honestly, to compare forced breeding of dogs (which we do all the time with all kinds of animals) to the rape of women? Sorry...it doesn't fly for me.

The rape of a woman, to me, is infinitely more serious than the forced breeding of an animal...as horrible as that may be.

I don't see this as a black/white, either/or kind of conversation. The abuse of animals or any living thing is equally abhorrent to me. Someone who abuses an animal is equally as likely to abuse a human being. It is part of the human pathology of othering someone or thing in order to justify, sanctify or allow mistreatment.

I hope that we can allow that there is a lot we do not know about the workings of animals. I am not talking about anthropomorphizing or a Eurocentric view of animals. I am talking about the complex lives of animals. I have loved Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson's books on animal emotions.

In order for the abuse of humans to stop and our behavior to evolve it seems to me that we need to understand and treat all living things with compassion.