Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by blush

Yes, but is it ALL dog behavior is emulated from wolf infantile behaviors, or just the roots of dog behavior?

As I understand it (and neither wolves or dogs are my speciality nor my special interest) ALL dog behavior can be observed in wolves. However, for dogs the behavior may be vestigial.

For example:

Tail position isn't vestigial and neither is gaze. Those are *really* communicating something. Shaking actually helps in thermoregulation.

Scent rolling and cache burying, on the other hand, are largely vestigial behaviors. Scent rolling is probably a way of camouflaging their own scent when hunting and cache burying is, of course, a way of storing up food for lean times. However, with modern dogs neither circumstance really obtains under normal (for domestic pet dogs) circumstances.

Here's the thing, at the outside domestication of wolves started around 30,000 years ago. We know that by 9,000 years ago (7000 BCE) dogs had been domesticated. Even if we accept the outer timeline, 30K years seems, to us, like FOREVER but in an evolutionary time frame that *just* happened.

Behaviorally modern Homo sapiens date to probably no earlier than 50 - 70K years ago and anatomically modern humans date to probably no earlier than 150,000 years ago. All modern Homo sapiens are descended from a population of no larger than about 10 - 15K breeding individuals living in Africa around 75,000 years ago. That 75K years has been enough time for us to evolve the different racial groups, some interesting mutations like red and blonde hair and blue and green eyes. The only other major adaptations that I can think of that have happened since then was lactose tolerance--which almost certainly cannot predate, by much, the invention of agriculture.

Our brains, however haven't changed very much in the last 25,000 years. If someone built a time machine, went back in time to 25K years ago and grabbed any dozen random infants and then came back to 2011 there is NOTHING that those children could not learn. Most likely, something very similar is operating with dogs. The thing is, we selected for immaturity (mature wolves being kind of dangerous), and friendliness to humans. But I doubt that your average dog brain is THAT different from the average wolf brain. They've had maybe 20 or 30K years with us, compared to the *millions* of years of evolution before they adopted us or we adopted them. Their brains are running an extraordinarily successful program and since almost NONE of the vestigial behaviors have any kind of costs in terms of reproductive fitness (the only currency evolution gives a damn about) I doubt that most of those wolf-like behaviors will disappear anytime soon.

Cheers
Aj

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by June

Let me tell you what I am hearing between the lines in some cases:

Poor people shouldn't be allowed to own dogs because they are irresponsible pet owners. (What this means to me is that the people who are likely to be poor, are also more likely to be people of color, especially in the USA).

I guess I'm not seeing where you're getting this part June...

I don't think that income has anything to do with responsible pet ownership (other than the fact that vet bills can be expensive).

On the subject of dogs for protection...having grown up in a dangerous neighborhood, I also think that protection is a viable reason for having a dog. Certainly, anyone looking for a dog to provide protection isn't going to have a mini-doxie like we do. They're going to want something bigger, that will give an intruder pause. I don't have a problem with that either. For me, dogs can serve a number of purposes...and companionship is only one of those.

For me, there's a huge difference between an individual that chooses a doberman or a pit or a rottie and handles it intelligently, trains it, cares for it...and also expects it to provide protection....and the individual that gets that same breed and then goads and baits the dog into being actively aggressive at every opportunity because it feeds their ego or image or whatever.

[Glenn]

I Agree Jo.
.
A trained fighter will tear off your face and organs and not stop until death. Vick and others trained killers. Huge difference in criminal behavior. I was attacked twice just standing around my house all because somehow one was loose... And I tell you folks, nothing short of a gun can stop them. Luckily, I was able to grab a 2x4 and a brick and that worked one time just enough to escape.

[Toughy]

German Shepherds have the strongest bite pressure of all dogs. As Blush pointed out, pits are way down on the list.

I have broken up plenty o dog fights, with pits and shepards and danes and labs............don't let labs fool you folks........Labs are in dog fights far more than pits at my work.....rotties, dobies and danes fight the least. I will break up a dog fight regardless of the breeds involved. The worst bite I have had came from one of those drop kick ankle biters......a mixed breed wirey white/grey little shit.....laughin....that was trying to attack a new dog (a bichon) to the pack.....

It's not the dog that is dangerous....it's the idiot that owns the dog that is dangerous.

Vick is doing a lot of work in inner cities.....he is using his 'hero' status to work with those who participate in dog fighting. A little research will show that Vick does get it and he is working with folks who are in dog fighting. He is doing what he can to change inner city dog fighting culture. He is just not making the news for his work.

suebee..........what does Vick need to do to 'prove he gets it'?

As to Obama............what the hell was he thinking?????

[dixie]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

I Agree Jo.
.
A trained fighter will tear off your face and organs and not stop until death. Vick and others trained killers. Huge difference in criminal behavior. I was attacked twice just standing around my house all because somehow one was loose... And I tell you folks, nothing short of a gun can stop them. Luckily, I was able to grab a 2x4 and a brick and that worked one time just enough to escape.

I'm sorry you had to go thru this experience and am thankful you made it out safely. However, it is another misconception that ALL fighting dogs have human aggression as well. Once again, depends on how that dog is trained, handled and treated. As I said before, I've been around fighting dogs and former fighting dogs who have been completely gentle even with children. I've seen former fighting dogs of more variety than just pits, such as presa canario,cane corso, rottie and even malamutes that have been "rehabilitated" so to speak. No, I would not trust them entirely around other dogs because that was what they were trained to attack. The majority of fighting dogs are not trained to attack humans and in fact are trained to obey every command, even in the heat of a fight. Security dogs however usually ARE trained to be human aggressive. This is why not only a lot of drug dealers/gang members (statistics, not accusatory) but also misguided (IMO) family figures choose these animals and train them to be "on guard" and "protective". It literally is ALL about how these animals are TRAINED AND TREATED, whether they are for fighting, protection, or family pets. And sadly, sometimes no matter how good an animal is treated it has the capability to still turn on someone. What we seem to forget in our love for these animals is that they are in fact, STILL ANIMALS. They may have hundreds and even thousands of years of domestication in their bloodlines but those bloodlines STILL have some of the wild and free flowing in them also.

I mentioned early that my best friend had her face and fingers ripped off by a schnauzer. It was not a malnurished, abused animal. This was a wealthy neighbor's prize show dog and family pet. It had never before shown a single agressive trait or act before the incident. It was not provoked. My best friend was sitting at a table eating a cookie and talking to her mother and the neighbor when they dog attacked her. There was no warning, no indication. No animal's behavior can be totally predictive nor totally safe. This is the chance that we take when we open our homes and hearts to ANY creature. I say this as an animal lover, pet owner and realist.

[JustJo]

Thought this was interesting... the link to the Humane Society's FAQ about their End Dogfighting program and Vick's involvement...

[katsarecool]

I was the proud owner of Rottweilers for over twenty years. My last one passed away over a year ago. Originally I purchased his grandfather for protection after being sexually assaulted in Atlanta back in 1988. He was protective of me from day one as a seven week old puppy.

My vet told me that "we" must be obedienced trained. LOL He said the dog would listen to my commands up to a point; the point where he felt I was being threatened and then the dog would take over. Luckily, it never came to pass. Just the site of that 120 pound dog sitting on my feet facing a person he felt threatened by growling at him and baring his teeth was enough.

Many vets told me that the personality of dogs was determined by more than one factor. The breed somewhat. The amound of breeding with a dog with a gentle personality with another dog of similar traits. Or visa versa. He always advised gentle with gentle dogs. And the last is how the dog is treated by its owner. All comes into play.

My Rottie family were the most gentle and loveable of dogs. They were from a reputable breeder and when I bred my dogs I made sure the stud was a kind soul. We treated them like the little kings and queens they were.

I would however remind everyone that they should never allow a small child to be alone with any dog no matter how much you trust them. My nephew was left alone with his Rottie; began pulling the dogs whiskers out one by one was warned repeatedly by the dog it hurt(he was four) and the family dog did bite him in the face. My brother in law is a bit of a jerk like that; left the child alone with the dog despite repeated warnings.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by Toughy

The worst bite I have had came from one of those drop kick ankle biters......a mixed breed wirey white/grey little shit.....laughin....that was trying to attack a new dog (a bichon) to the pack.....

Hey Toughy, don't you think it's a little um, uncomfortable, that you use the phrase "drop kick dog" in a thread about animal abuse??

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Thought this was interesting... the link to the Humane Society's FAQ about their End Dogfighting program and Vick's involvement...

Thank you.

Cheers
Aj

[Sachita]

[quote=suebee;255482]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Now you're reaching.

I love dogs. But certainly I feel that the assault of one woman is more important than the abuse of hundreds of dogs. It doesn't have to be hundred of women by one man for it to be abhorrent.

We -are- more important (to me) than dogs are.
QUOTE]


I don't know that we're more important than animals. I know we're more important to US than animals are. And I mean that seriously. (but that's a whole 'nother discussion) My point is that a man who systematically abused women to the extent that Vick and others have and continue to systematically abuse animals would not so easily slip back into the stature of hero. This is NOT a man who kicked his dog because it peed on the carpet! As if his actions weren't horrendous enough, he's done this to HUNDREDS of animals! Isn't that serious enough?

I don't know how a topic about animal abuse can turn into domestic abuse. They are two completely different agendas and can't be compared. Since the beginning of time human hold dominion and domesticated animals. Somewhere in that we should be held responsible and accountable for doing this. Laws can eventually be created and people become more conscious enough to take action. We all have our moral passions. Some more passionate about animal abuse then others.

The bottom line, for me is this..

should a public figure earning millions of dollars be publically forgiven by our President for animal abuse? My answer will always be no. We're not talking a few chained dogs or a dog that died in is care but premeditated cruelty. He knew damn well what he was doing. He had no compassion for all those animals whatsoever. It's clearly obvious and *that* is the reason he should not be forgiven. Regardless if he is a celebrity or not it should be an example and severely punished to make people think & prompt new laws not the continued banishment of a breed.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by katsarecool

I was the proud owner of Rottweilers for over twenty years. My last one passed away over a year ago. Originally I purchased his grandfather for protection after being sexually assaulted in Atlanta back in 1988. He was protective of me from day one as a seven week old puppy.

My vet told me that "we" must be obedienced trained. LOL He said the dog would listen to my commands up to a point; the point where he felt I was being threatened and then the dog would take over. Luckily, it never came to pass. Just the site of that 120 pound dog sitting on my feet facing a person he felt threatened by growling at him and baring his teeth was enough.

Many vets told me that the personality of dogs was determined by more than one factor. The breed somewhat. The amound of breeding with a dog with a gentle personality with another dog of similar traits. Or visa versa. He always advised gentle with gentle dogs. And the last is how the dog is treated by its owner. All comes into play.

My Rottie family were the most gentle and loveable of dogs. They were from a reputable breeder and when I bred my dogs I made sure the stud was a kind soul. We treated them like the little kings and queens they were.

I would however remind everyone that they should never allow a small child to be alone with any dog no matter how much you trust them. My nephew was left alone with his Rottie; began pulling the dogs whiskers out one by one was warned repeatedly by the dog it hurt(he was four) and the family dog did bite him in the face. My brother in law is a bit of a jerk like that; left the child alone with the dog despite repeated warnings.

I lost my rottie just a few months ago. I would love to have another but can't pay for a dog when so many need homes. It's my own thing. He was a gentle giant.

My advice to people who get specific breed is to research carefully the breed and what they instinctual enjoy or need. If they are a herding dog then stimulate his nature with herding play, etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with a dog protecting his family IF the dog owner takes the proper steps to train and protect the public from their pet.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Michael Vick WAS punished & served his time, WTF more does he have to do, go through to make y'all see that. What would satisfy you Sachita? A public punishment? Him living on the streets? Working @ a Waffle House? Don't you see that shit enough??

That is just as GROSS wanting this man to PAY more than he already has. I'm no fan but damn could it be he knows he did wrong?

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Michael Vick WAS punished & served his time, WTF more does he have to do, go through to make y'all see that. What would satisfy you Sachita? A public punishment? Him living on the streets? Working @ a Waffle House? Don't you see that shit enough??

That is just as GROSS wanting this man to PAY more than he already has. I'm no fan but damn could it be he knows he did wrong?

No one is asking him to pay any more. I'm just saying that I can't forgive him. The fact that he went to prison and paid a fine for what he did does not make it go away and I'm sorry but I won't, can't and don't think Obama should have been involved.

Look you have your opinion and I have mine. I'm sticking with mine. If it were up to me, and its not, I would have taken illegal measures against him. Animal abuse, for me, ranks as high as child abuse, in my book. A violent act against innocence. If I could legally punish him and not go to jail then you bet your ass I would. oh yeah.

So its cool. Thats your opinion- gross, like it or not. I'm firm on this.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Michael Vick WAS punished by the system this country has set up, and yes you amongst others would have him pay in other forms, the lynch mob mentality I've come across on this thread is just as gross if not even more considering his time was served. I'm at work so I will come back later and point out where Vick's time served has not been punishment enough. It's even MORE gross considering the Favre, Sheen, Gibson, Rothlesberger pig pen going on. No one calls for their heads or lives, then again they're WHITE misunderstood men.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Michael Vick WAS punished by the system this country has set up, and yes you amongst others would have him pay in other forms, the lynch mob mentality I've come across on this thread is just as gross if not even more considering his time was served. I'm at work so I will come back later and point out where Vick's time served has not been punishment enough. It's even MORE gross considering the Favre, Sheen, Gibson, Rothlesberger pig pen going on. No one calls for their heads or lives, then again they're WHITE misunderstood men.

wow.. hmmmm its not a lynch mob mentality or a racial issue. Look you can keep on and on, insult me because of my point of view but it won't change my mind one single bit and never have I stood more firmly on an issue. Don't even get me started on "this country" because I'd surely piss a lot of people off. lol

I'm just not going to toss this all over the place turning it into a bunch of non-constructive action. If you'd like to then have at it!

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Sachita

No one is asking him to pay any more. I'm just saying that I can't forgive him. The fact that he went to prison and paid a fine for what he did does not make it go away and I'm sorry but I won't, can't and don't think Obama should have been involved.

Look you have your opinion and I have mine. I'm sticking with mine. If it were up to me, and its not, I would have taken illegal measures against him. Animal abuse, for me, ranks as high as child abuse, in my book. A violent act against innocence. If I could legally punish him and not go to jail then you bet your ass I would. oh yeah.

So its cool. Thats your opinion- gross, like it or not. I'm firm on this.

Sachita:

I have no doubt about what you say. None what-so-ever. I'm glad it's not up to you. I'm glad that the chances of my ever being in a position where you would be deciding MY fate is not up to you or a number of others here. I know that it is uncomfortable, and I’m not comfortable saying it, but I think that more than a lot of folks want to admit this is because Mr. Vick is a scary black man. I think that what members of the American majority see when they look at Mr. Vick is the nightmare monster they have been taught, from pretty much the first time someone sat them down in front of a TV until last night, is the most dangerous creature in their midst--the black man.

I'm glad it's not up to you because of your statement that if it were you would have taken illegal measures. I'm glad that it isn't 60 years ago, hell, I’m glad it isn't 50 years ago because probably as late as 1970 you could have reasonably walked up to Mr. Vick, shot him on the courthouse steps in a small Alabama town, in full-view of the local TV cameras and paid no penalty.

I know you would like to see Mr. Vick punished in perpetuity but this is why we have a legal system--flawed as it is--it is to make the system tilt toward justice and not vengeance. What you want is vengeance, what I want is punishment. Mr. Vick committed a crime. Mr. Vick served a prison sentence for his crime. Mr. Vick is now going back to doing a job he is, I presume, nominally competent at. I am not concerned about Mr. Obama's making a phone call, that concern drifted away on the tide of 'teach the black man a lesson' that I've been reading the last few days.

I'm curious, how destroyed do you think his life should be?

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Sachita

wow.. hmmmm its not a lynch mob mentality or a racial issue. Look you can keep on and on, insult me because of my point of view but it won't change my mind one single bit and never have I stood more firmly on an issue. Don't even get me started on "this country" because I'd surely piss a lot of people off. lol

I'm just not going to toss this all over the place turning it into a bunch of non-constructive action. If you'd like to then have at it!

It's not a lynch mob mentality? You would take illegal measures if you had access to him and could get away with it but that's NOT a lynching? What, precisely, do you think a lynching WAS if not illegal measures taken with impunity?

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

It's not a lynch mob mentality? You would take illegal measures if you had access to him and could get away with it but that's NOT a lynching? What, precisely, do you think a lynching WAS if not illegal measures taken with impunity?

It's called my vigilante fantasy. Sorry but I can't change how I think or feel on this. It's not up to me, you're right and glad, thats cool. Now why not respect my viewpoint as I have yours? Because its based on a personal agenda or what "this country" allows?

Still not changing my mind. Nor would I change my mind about a predator that abuses children. To me they are almost the same or at least the emotion it invokes and its truly how I feel. But don't worry, I'm not running for office. lol

[Sachita]

oh AJ also you keep wanting to make this a black issue and for me it has nothing to do with that at all. I don't care what color or sex a person is. If they committed the crimes he cleared did against helpless animals I'd feel exactly the same way.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Sachita

oh AJ also you keep wanting to make this a black issue and for me it has nothing to do with that at all. I don't care what color or sex a person is. If they committed the crimes he cleared did against helpless animals I'd feel exactly the same way.

Of course it's a race issue, FFS we all know that men of color do not get tried the same as white men. Vick is a money maker, he serves the man a purpose, the cash cow privilege allowed him that second chance. Your fantasies are one step from the good ol boy hang 'em mentality that I truly believe would happen if people could get away with it. As passionate as you are about dogs, I've that same passion when it comes to our men being given a chance and not incarcerated.