"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by friskyfemme

I don't understand why people find it necessary to intellectualize their ids...I think some confusion at least for me (seems others too) is trying to understand: are people are coming from definition of sexual preference or personal id?

I have been around a lot of years. I id as 'stone femme'. This is my sexual preference. I am sexually attracted to stone butches...I am 'not' a no touch femme. I love 'no touch' butches. The guys that I date, love and partner with already understand where I am coming from.

Now...I am gonna age myself...when I came out...there were dykes and the woman who loved them and lesbians. The thing I realized early on ...I don't relate to 'female on female sex' - this is what lesbian means to me. So if I am talking, to a butch with a possible connection I will let them know 'I am not a lesbian'. The other thing that bugs me about the word lesbian is that it has been and is still used in negative context by hetros.

So maybe some of you consider me 'aniquated' but I have a clear ID and it works for me .

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

.....

I have no answers for your other questions of frisky, but I actually know what she meant by this. She's a Stone Femme that partners with Stone Butches. Her partners have the 'no touch' (or no feminizing touching) sexual boundaries that she is fine with and respects. She does not have those same 'no touch' boundaries. She likes to be touched by her partners, especially in a feminizing way.

The rest I am actually interested in hearing the answers to.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

What if we didn't analyze each others ID's?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

What if we didn't analyze each others ID's?

I don't think the attempt is to analyze (as in break down) anyone's ID, but to understand and learn from one another's IDs. If we can't learn from one another, then how in heck can we try to help those outside of our community understand or accept us?

[BullDog]

I am a Stone Butch. Feminizing touch does not factor in at all for me. I am a masculine female (butch). The way someone touches me is not going to make me feel more or less masculine or feminine. I am a Stone Butch Lesbian because that is how I am wired and what feels good to me and what gives me pleasure. I have my own boundaries, likes and dislikes when it comes to sex just like everyone else. There aren't any particular sex acts that qualify or disqualify me to be a lesbian. Being a Stone Butch doesn't disqualify me to be a lesbian either.

I am quite confused about the female on female sex. Unless you are transitioned or consider yourself to have a male body, don't you have a female body? Don't most of us female bodied people have sex with other female bodied people? This is a Lesbian/Queer website and community, right?

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am a Stone Butch. Feminizing touch does not factor in at all for me. I am a masculine female (butch). The way someone touches me is not going to make me feel more or less masculine or feminine. I am a Stone Butch Lesbian because that is how I am wired and what feels good to me and what gives me pleasure. I have my own boundaries, likes and dislikes when it comes to sex just like everyone else. There aren't any particular sex acts that qualify or disqualify me to be a lesbian. Being a Stone Butch doesn't disqualify me to be a lesbian either.

I am quite confused about the female on female sex. Unless you are transitioned or consider yourself to have a male body, don't you have a female body? Don't most of us female bodied people have sex with other female bodied people? This is a Lesbian/Queer website and community, right?

I don't know what "feminizing touch" is either.

Are there forms of touch that magically confer masculinity or femininity on the recipient?
What would be a form of masculinizing touch or feminizing touch?
Inquiring minds want to know!

[Dragonfly]

Feminizing Touch
Does that mean "in a way that reminds you that you are female born"? I mean does that describe the way your "bits" are stimulated? To use Selenay's term for them I once saw and stole from her recently cause its cute.

I do see a difference in technique... and have made love differently to a man than to a woman. See what I mean by terms that would be less confusing? If you mean "in a way that would make ANYONE feel like the female parts are being stimulated and not like a males parts are being stimulated" THAT would be too stereotyping for me....

Someone once said when I make love to a male IDed person I may touch their parts... but I dont touch them in the same way as I would or have touched females. I thought that was easy to understand without graphic details.

*** For graphic details see my next post under my erotica lol

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

I don't know what "feminizing touch" is either.

Are there forms of touch that magically confer masculinity or femininity on the recipient?
What would be a form of masculinizing touch or feminizing touch?
Inquiring minds want to know!

For someone that does not identify with their female anatomy, touching their chest as one would touch the breasts of a female-identified person is an example of feminizing touch.

Yes, some touches are magical...both good and bad...for the recipient.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

I don't know what "feminizing touch" is either.

Are there forms of touch that magically confer masculinity or femininity on the recipient?
What would be a form of masculinizing touch or feminizing touch?
Inquiring minds want to know!

Part 1

(warning: below are some outrageous examples used in attempt to discuss what it is to sexually 'feminize'. cringe-worthy, read with caution)

i asked my ever-insightful partner if he feels as though there are touches that are *feminizing* and if so what they might be. he couldn't really come up with one, so i offered, 'what if i said i was going to 'finger bang' you?' which got an eyeroll and a, 'you know i don't like that' so i asked, 'why? is it feminizing?' and he said, 'no, i'm just not into it' so, i continued, 'what if i went over and did a 'motorboat' on your chest-area?' and he laughed, 'i'd laugh' i persisted, 'would you get mad? would you think it was feminizing?' he explained, 'if you did that i know you'd be joking' (i wouldn't do that, btw) again i asked, 'is it feminizing?' and he's patient so he said, 'no, not feminizing, we just have been together long enough for me to know what you like and for you to know what i like...' so, of course i persisted, 'what if i said i wanted to suck your hot wet pussy?' again, he didn't find *any* of my examples as much 'feminizing' as absurd. i think i'm concluding that i can't 'feminize' what isn't feminine and attempting to wouldn't be what either of us is about. (additionally, i did try to discover WHY it is that he doesn't like a certain, 'sensation' (ones that i do) but was without success beyond, 'i just don't')

Part 2

also, i don't believe in stone femme (unless you define stone femme as someone with boundaries regarding touch, of their personal person.) otherwise 'stone femme' just means that someone isn't attracted to who their sleeping with--which is cool, i don't judge--but lets get on the same page, already.

Part 3

i'm reading, 'nickel and dimed' and i'm pretty sure it has me interested in conducting covert social research.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I don't think the attempt is to analyze (as in break down) anyone's ID, but to understand and learn from one another's IDs. If we can't learn from one another, then how in heck can we try to help those outside of our community understand or accept us?

I agree about learning but the bickering is what I see as a problem. I see bickering over words that define each and everyone of us, to me that is disturbing.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

I agree about learning but the bickering is what I see as a problem. I see bickering over words that define each and everyone of us, to me that is disturbing.

*nods*

It is difficult to see past the clashing of terms, I admit. I do feel it's necessary to do so, so that there won't be friction between the members of our community.

It is oftentimes a slow, bumpy road though.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by Gemme

*nods*

It is difficult to see past the clashing of terms, I admit. I do feel it's necessary to do so, so that there won't be friction between the members of our community.

It is oftentimes a slow, bumpy road though.

Agreed

and as far as feminizing touch goes, for me personally, touching my chest is feminizing. To me it is bad enough that I have them but it irks me to think of my partner touching me there.

[friskyfemme]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I have no answers for your other questions of frisky, but I actually know what she meant by this. She's a Stone Femme that partners with Stone Butches. Her partners have the 'no touch' (or no feminizing touching) sexual boundaries that she is fine with and respects. She does not have those same 'no touch' boundaries. She likes to be touched by her partners, especially in a feminizing way.

The rest I am actually interested in hearing the answers to.

ok enough. I will try to explain myself. My comment about not relating as a lesbian is simply as I stated. It has to do with my interpretation of the term. I partner with male id butches. I do not participate in fondling or mouthing the female parts of my partners. However, I do enjoy and invite it for myself. As I stated in my post 'this is what is I termed as 'female on female' sex which is what I have known as the distinction between stone and lesbian. I id as a femme. Which in itself has diferent meanings for different people. I have seen by response that others' have a different reference for all of the above mentioned. I am in no way attempting to define anyone else or making any derogatory comment about anyone else's id or sexual preferences. I was simply offering my own and explaining why. Which is what I thought was the spirit of this thread. If I offended anyone it is not my intent. The fact that I am offended by some of the comments here, I chose to believe were not intended as such.

[Dragonfly]

Aww Friskyfemme sorry to hear you feel like that... ok enough. Even the worst said thought is still helping everyone else. Lots read that dont post.

I missed what parts you thought were offensive lately... unless you meant earlier in the thread and or from the time area where you were quoting? Could you clarify when you were offended ... that is if you were newly offended or didnt post specifically what was offensive.... will you please post that for me?

It is very important to me to keep my head around what is offensive and why and to whom. I want to learn, grow and not make ANYone feel unwelcome here.... so you could help me do that in hypothetical future by giving me a heads up on it. If it is not anything newly posted or something you already said was offensive somewhere... Sorry nevermind I am re reading this thread to note all expressed offended feelings for future reference anyway....

Thank you for being so patient and welcoming to everyone's posts.

D.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....

I've tried to figure out what people mean by "lesbian sex" and address it here (in other posts) several times.... good luck.

Metro
*who's pretty damn sure lesbians all have different likes and dislikes in the bedroom just like everybody else*
.

[Dragonfly]

I dont know if anyone has stated an opinion on this yet or not. I read them all as they progressed.... but now my mind is cloudy. I just wanted to say that the BIG part of homophobia that I witness in my po dunk area is the sexual acts part of it not the who you love part. Some people gets so phobic and hateful by verbally commenting on their imagined homosexual sex acts-- that arent even accurate or stereotypically correct.... I wanna say just stop trying to guess cause you have no clue what I do in bed less you bed me.

SO can I just say maybe again if someone already has...

A gender ID is NOT a explanation of what you like sexually. Unless you say it is for you personally.... then thats ok with me as long as its not speaking for ALL anybodys IDing like you do...


Wondering...
If we can separate gender ID from sexual likes/dislikes completely.... the way my kids' generation does without thinking maybe everyone will realize all over the world just what that means. Maybe it would be un thought of to wonder if terms will be cast aside if that were to happen globally... separate gender 100% from sexuality....

If we can change our culture's "definitions" as I have seen through the years living within hetero culture and watching it change as I went unnoticed as queer... why cant we do that too.... separate them totally?

Do I have to feel I am lesbian just because I and my sexual partners so far have IDed as a female gender? Maybe if the whole world hears lesbian in that way... but I dont see why that HAS to stay like that forever if that is the "way it is".

And if I feel I ID as lesbian but am drawn to BF dynamics... does that mean I like to hide my homosexuality within the masculinity of butches.... as if I am pretending to be hetero without actually being one? Who cares.... if you think that of me anyway...

I dont view BF dynamics as male genders and female genders. That is why I like that people state it and dont act like we should all know by one term of their ID. Thats why I like two ply ID's and the idea of new terms added.

** sorry still A little tender from the card pullers of my intro to the community...

Btw, NO ONE has ever accepted me as one of "their team" from the hets and or the homes. Whomever mentioned bisexuals as the new bashed ID I think has it right for a certain generation... maybe not my kids' though....

Until BF community I was not enough of anything to "qualify" because its always all about the sex and how or who you do what with.

Thats why I like to think gender does not = sexuality.

[friskyfemme]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....

Thanks to Gemme for the segway... I will try to explain myself. My comment about not relating as a lesbian is simply as I stated. It has to do with my interpretation of the term. I partner with male id butches. I do not participate in fondling or mouthing the female parts of my partners. However, I do enjoy and invite it for myself. As I stated in my post this is what 'I' termed as 'female on female' sex which is what 'I' have known as the distinction between stone and lesbian. I id as a femme. Which in itself has different meanings for different people. I have deduced by responses that others' have a different reference for all of the above mentioned. I am in no way attempting to define anyone else or making any derogatory comment about anyone else's id or sexual preferences. I was simply offering my own and explaining why. Which is what I thought was the spirit of this thread. If I offended anyone it is not my intent. The fact that I am offended by some of the comments here, I chose to believe were not intended as such.