Ode to Butches

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

Right, see my first point. And thanks for giving me the ok to post here, I wasn't aware your approval was necessary, though you certainly spend a lot of time moderating the direction of the conversation.

I think my third point (damn, should have used bullets) makes it clear what I think of the OP when I called it "clichéd." I agree with Kim, "it was full of stereotypes, and certainly didn't accurately describe any butch that I've ever known."

What I do find interesting is the avenue of dialog (albeit one some people have attempted to divert) with regard to butches and male attraction. Hell yeah - I find that shit fascinating!

I am intrigued by male attraction to butches, gay men, sure, but what I find most compelling is heterosexual male sexual attraction to butch. On at least one level, it interests me for the ways in which it validates the argument for sexuality existing on a continuum. We're talking about a "straight" man sexually attracted to another masculine presence. Not gay, but gay? I want to dissect that, put it under a microscope and take pictures. Sure, that's not what the OP was talking about, but the dialog has attempted to take us there, and I for one don't understand all the defensiveness surrounding it.

Heterosexual men have hit on me in the past, and it doesn't make me question my own masculinity or sexuality - I never feel threatened in that way - but it sure as shootin' makes me question theirs. I don't judge them, but I'm decidedly curious and have yet to find a man with whom I could have that conversation.

Originally Posted by evolveme

I'm sure someone was just "taking up too much space."

So just elbow them out!

[BullDog]

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.

I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads.

Oh and I never said who could or couldn't post here, so don't throw that crap at me. It's not sticking.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.

I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads.

Oh and I never said who could or couldn't post here, so don't through that crap at me. It's not sticking.

This denial and dismissiveness from you has become as predictable as villagers with pitchforks.

Maybe you haven't noticed that I'm not the only person to call you out on your behavior.

"I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads."

I clearly object to you speaking for "other butches," as I am one. Maybe if you spoke from your "I" place and called it quits there.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

This denial and dismissiveness from you has become as predictable as villagers with pitchforks.

Maybe you haven't noticed that I'm not the only person to call you out on your behavior.

"I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads."

I clearly object to you speaking for "other butches," as I am one. Maybe if you spoke from your "I" place and called it quits there.

I don't appreciate being told that I am in some sort of panic. It wasn't implied just about me.

Should I tell you how you are feeling?

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't appreciate being told that I am in some sort of panic. It wasn't implied just about me.

Should I tell you how you are feeling?

It would be irrelevant.

Frankly, my interest in this thread isn't the number of times in which you opted to speak for butch (the one example you provided isn't the sole) nor the number of times you've attempted to police the conversation.

I took the time to compose a post with regard to what I do find compelling, and that's the conversation I'd be willing to continue.

[BullDog]

Anyway I am going to take the advice of June. For those who wish to discuss the topic of Odes to Butches please enjoy your conversation.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Anyway I am going to take the advice of June. For those who wish to discuss the topic of Odes to Butches please enjoy your conversation.

Bulldog I always enjoy your posts. But when the personal attacks start perhaps it is time to step away. When someone attacked WILDCAT's punctuation (!!) that pretty much did it for me.
Peace.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.

This is the part where I take a tangential little side road to talk about debate, yet again, because for me, these spaces are more networks than communities and while networks are highly meaningful spaces in emotional and other ways, it is important that they also be useful ones. If we are to engage, ever, on substantive issues - as we appear to be doing in this thread (again, around the topic of "identity" and what-all that can mean for us individually and collectively), it is important that we attempt to adhere to some basic principles of debate.

I'm not picking on you, Bulldog, and as I've said to you before - whether you choose to believe it or not - I do respect you - but what you have just illustrated above is, again, something I've heard called "conversational cowardice" (thank you, Honeychile). Simply dropping a line like this and ceasing the effort of constructive engagement may make you feel better, it may offer you some form of emotional release, but it is poor form, man! It offers nothing toward the argument (yours or anyone's) and it is, in a word: rude.

I strongly advise against it.

We can all snark. Some of us could win fucking Tony Awards in snarkery, and personally, I think where snark is dead, so is dialogue, but come on, let us keep the conversation going. Dropping a line such as the above and walking out serves no one. Least of all the passion behind the beliefs with which you chose to pick up the thread of debate in the first place.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by evolveme

This is the part where I take a tangential little side road to talk about debate, yet again, because for me, these spaces are more networks than communities and while networks are highly meaningful spaces in emotional and other ways, it is important that they also be useful ones. If we are to engage, ever, on substantive issues - as we appear to be doing in this thread (again, around the topic of "identity" and what-all that can mean for us individually and collectively), it is important that we attempt to adhere to some basic principles of debate.

I'm not picking on you, Bulldog, and as I've said to you before - whether you choose to believe it or not - I do respect you - but what you have just illustrated above is, again, something I've heard called "conversational cowardice" (thank you, Honeychile). Simply dropping a line like this and ceasing the effort of constructive engagement may make you feel better, it may offer you some form of emotional release, but it is poor form, man! It offers nothing toward the argument (yours or anyone's) and it is, in a word: rude.

I strongly advise against it.

We can all snark. Some of us could win fucking Tony Awards in snarkery, and personally, I think where snark is dead, so is dialogue, but come on, let us keep the conversation going. Dropping a line such as the above and walking out serves no one. Least of all the passion behind the beliefs with which you chose to pick up the thread of debate in the first place.

I am not policing the thread. Mister Bent is free to talk about whatever he wants.

I see no attempt at meaningful dialogue or constructive engagement with me.