OFOS Butches & Femmes

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

Evening MadiT.

I have been thinking about Old school and how it seems out of style for some. I wonder why. What is so Old Fashion / Old School about chivalry, honor and commitment? Isn't that the way people should treat people?

I never felt that I could participate in a thread about OFOS. But, some of the posts have helped me pull the threads on a few of the things that resonate with me. I agree, OS Butch, that people should treat one another with chivalry, honor, and commitment.

In my ideal relationship (not dissimilar to the real one), there are all of these qualities. The thing is, for me, the giving goes in both directions. The door holding, the compliments and admiration, the romancing are all reciprocal. Nothing about this undermines the reality that she revels in her butchness and I am completely feminine. It is indeed the yin and yang. It's what I love and cherish in a relationship that I can have with a butch woman. There is nothing expected or automatic about what we do. It's created every day, out of a great sense of gratitude that we can have the type of relationship we want, rather than the one that society or religion try to dictate.

To me, there isn't anything old fashioned about the expression of shared values. But, as has been mentioned, I also don't find anything redeeming in perpetuating views of women as weak, childish, or otherwise less than.

[OS Butch]

I can't speak for how others view Old School, but I will speak as to how I view my own behavior as Old School values pertain to me.

I bolded the part I have issues with your post. Because I open a door, I don't believe it perpetuates the view that women are weak. I do this for another Butches as well as my father or anyone that I respect and honor. I will graciously accept an open door from anyone whether they be Butch or Femme. I am sure there are those that would balk at this.....Maybe I am a progressive Butch.

The things I do as an Old Schooler are purely based on how I respect and honor those around me. I would hope that it is the same for others. All of my values and how I move in this world, I would hope, would never be interpreted for another being weak, silly or any less of a person.

Originally Posted by Lynn

I never felt that I could participate in a thread about OFOS. But, some of the posts have helped me pull the threads on a few of the things that resonate with me. I agree, OS Butch, that people should treat one another with chivalry, honor, and commitment.

In my ideal relationship (not dissimilar to the real one), there are all of these qualities. The thing is, for me, the giving goes in both directions. The door holding, the compliments and admiration, the romancing are all reciprocal. Nothing about this undermines the reality that she revels in her butchness and I am completely feminine. It is indeed the yin and yang. It's what I love and cherish in a relationship that I can have with a butch woman. There is nothing expected or automatic about what we do. It's created every day, out of a great sense of gratitude that we can have the type of relationship we want, rather than the one that society or religion try to dictate.

To me, there isn't anything old fashioned about the expression of shared values. But, as has been mentioned, I also don't find anything redeeming in perpetuating views of women as weak, childish, or otherwise less than.

[Lynn]

OS Butch, I wasn't in any way meaning to imply that you or anyone who opens doors, etc., thinks a femme is weak. In fact, I was agreeing with you.

I said,

"The door holding, the compliments and admiration, the romancing are all reciprocal. Nothing about this undermines the reality that she revels in her butchness and I am completely feminine. It is indeed the yin and yang."

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I think we see eye to eye, if I understand you correctly.

[OS Butch]

I totally misunderstood what you were saying. I suppose it was my blinders were on too tight.

Over the years I have been ridiculed for being Old School. Old School is sometimes so misunderstood and in fact I don't believe it is Old Fashioned at all, it is the way it should be the way people treat people.

It always amazes when when I am on a subway or bus and there is an elderly, pregnant woman or a handicapped person standing, that people would let them stand rather than give up their seat. I can just feel the stares when I do give up my seat. But that probably is more because I am a Butch, not because of the courteous action.

Originally Posted by Lynn

OS Butch, I wasn't in any way meaning to imply that you or anyone who opens doors, etc., thinks a femme is weak. In fact, I was agreeing with you.

I said,

"The door holding, the compliments and admiration, the romancing are all reciprocal. Nothing about this undermines the reality that she revels in her butchness and I am completely feminine. It is indeed the yin and yang."

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I think we see eye to eye, if I understand you correctly.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

It always amazes when when I am on a subway or bus and there is an elderly, pregnant woman or a handicapped person standing, that people would let them stand rather than give up their seat. I can just feel the stares when I do give up my seat. But that probably is more because I am a Butch, not because of the courteous action.

I agree--I do the same thing. The stares are probably because you were considerate enough to think of it, and they weren't.

[OS Butch]

Lynn, After misunderstanding, I reread your post. I red lettered a portion.

Why? What is it about Old School that would keep folks from participating?

I really don't think I am any different than any other Butch, though it has been pointed out to me that there is a lack of general manners.

With manners on my mind, I would like to know, what manners seem to be lacking in the Butches from the Femmes' point of view. What are the top 3 things a Femme wants to see when going out on a first date?

Originally Posted by Lynn

I never felt that I could participate in a thread about OFOS. But, some of the posts have helped me pull the threads on a few of the things that resonate with me. I agree, OS Butch, that people should treat one another with chivalry, honor, and commitment.

In my ideal relationship (not dissimilar to the real one), there are all of these qualities. The thing is, for me, the giving goes in both directions. The door holding, the compliments and admiration, the romancing are all reciprocal. Nothing about this undermines the reality that she revels in her butchness and I am completely feminine. It is indeed the yin and yang. It's what I love and cherish in a relationship that I can have with a butch woman. There is nothing expected or automatic about what we do. It's created every day, out of a great sense of gratitude that we can have the type of relationship we want, rather than the one that society or religion try to dictate.

To me, there isn't anything old fashioned about the expression of shared values. But, as has been mentioned, I also don't find anything redeeming in perpetuating views of women as weak, childish, or otherwise less than.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

Lynn, After misunderstanding, I reread your post. I red lettered a portion.

Why? What is it about Old School that would keep folks from participating?

For me, I just never saw myself as fitting into a discussion of OFOS. I don't think of myself as old fashioned, and I don't consider manners and consideration to be old school--I hope they're enduring and timeless. My views of OFOS are probably too stereotypical, but that's why I like to visit threads and read and learn.

I can't speak for other folks, though.

[OS Butch]

Thank you, Lynn. I have been feeling the same and wondering. I don't think I am old fashioned, which is why my preference is old school......which still doesn't feel right because I would hope that my values would not ever go out of vogue!

Originally Posted by Lynn

For me, I just never saw myself as fitting into a discussion of OFOS. I don't think of myself as old fashioned, and I don't consider manners and consideration to be old school--I hope they're enduring and timeless. My views of OFOS are probably too stereotypical, but that's why I like to visit threads and read and learn.

I can't speak for other folks, though.

[LBgirl]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

I really don't think I am any different than any other Butch, though it has been pointed out to me that there is a lack of general manners.
With manners on my mind, I would like to know, what manners seem to be lacking in the Butches from the Femmes' point of view. What are the top 3 things a Femme wants to see when going out on a first date?

I've stood in the rain waiting for a group of (young) andro-butch girls to a) stop talking and actually go through the open door b) stomp their cig butts on the ground and leave it there and c) look at me waiting and still dilly-dally their way inside. So yes, there is definitely a lack of general manners.

My late partner was Old School. I find that most womyn, butch or otherwise, have lost their sense of chivalry. Here are my top 3:

1) She used to not only help me put my coat on, but she would gently pull my hair from beneath the collar, spread it attractively down my back and straighten my collar if needed. I often got a gentle peck on the back of my neck during the process. In return, I adored her as if she was the most wonderful, most attentive, best dressed, well-mannered, most thoughtful human being who ever walked the earth (and she will always be that to me).

2) She didn't rush to the prize. Our 1st date was leisurely, comfortable and... well... gentle. She wasn't looking for that opportunity to "make her move", she wasn't trying to kiss me on the 1st date, she didn't make sexually explicit innuendos and she kept everything at an affectionate but classy level. She would graze my hand with hers, with a a soft caress instead of trying to capture it like it was a flag to be conquered.

3) She paid attention to ME. Sure we like to hear that we're lovely, sexy, or that we "turn you on", but what's better is to hear that and to be heard, too. Don't talk over me, don't randomly segue into different topics as if you were doing a stream-of-consciousness recital. Actually focus on what I say, not on whatever point you wanted to make next.

Sorry if this is long-winded and/or preachy, I just feel very strongly about this subject.

[OS Butch]

Not long winded at all LBgirl. Thank you for posting your top 3!

I do think the assisting with the coat and hair adjusting is one of those very intimate things a Butch can do for a Femme. I believe this kind of doting is missing to often and that it should be alive and well.

OSB

Originally Posted by LBgirl

I've stood in the rain waiting for a group of (young) andro-butch girls to a) stop talking and actually go through the open door b) stomp their cig butts on the ground and leave it there and c) look at me waiting and still dilly-dally their way inside. So yes, there is definitely a lack of general manners.

My late partner was Old School. I find that most womyn, butch or otherwise, have lost their sense of chivalry. Here are my top 3:

1) She used to not only help me put my coat on, but she would gently pull my hair from beneath the collar, spread it attractively down my back and straighten my collar if needed. I often got a gentle peck on the back of my neck during the process. In return, I adored her as if she was the most wonderful, most attentive, best dressed, well-mannered, most thoughtful human being who ever walked the earth (and she will always be that to me).

2) She didn't rush to the prize. Our 1st date was leisurely, comfortable and... well... gentle. She wasn't looking for that opportunity to "make her move", she wasn't trying to kiss me on the 1st date, she didn't make sexually explicit innuendos and she kept everything at an affectionate but classy level. She would graze my hand with hers, with a a soft caress instead of trying to capture it like it was a flag to be conquered.

3) She paid attention to ME. Sure we like to hear that we're lovely, sexy, or that we "turn you on", but what's better is to hear that and to be heard, too. Don't talk over me, don't randomly segue into different topics as if you were doing a stream-of-consciousness recital. Actually focus on what I say, not on whatever point you wanted to make next.

Sorry if this is long-winded and/or preachy, I just feel very strongly about this subject.

[LBgirl]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

Not long winded at all LBgirl. Thank you for posting your top 3!

I do think the assisting with the coat and hair adjusting is one of those very intimate things a Butch can do for a Femme. I believe this kind of doting is missing to often and that it should be alive and well.

OSB

She was also from the South, a true Southern Gentleman. I remember the first time she did that for me... She had just put my coat on me, I reached up to pull my hair out and she gently grasped my elbows and put them down to my side, whispering in my ear, "Please let me." I felt a catch in my throat and my knees got weak. There's something to be said about that Southern Charm.

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

Originally Posted by LBgirl

She was also from the South, a true Southern Gentleman. I remember the first time she did that for me... She had just put my coat on me, I reached up to pull my hair out and she gently grasped my elbows and put them down to my side, whispering in my ear, "Please let me." I felt a catch in my throat and my knees got weak. There's something to be said about that Southern Charm.

I got the same catch in my throat when I read this. Oh my...

[clay]

I hope to never, ever lose my very own Southern Charm/gentleness....grin....and THANK YOU, Ladies~~~

[SweetJane]

Originally Posted by ArkansasPiscesGrrl

I got the same catch in my throat when I read this. Oh my...

Arkansas, I teared up when I read it....Yeah. I'd like one of those, please.

[undone]

LBgirl,

I think you have stated it with charm and grace, perfectly.

I think in todays life or at least what i have come across in my wanders, is a loss for the gentle reasons behind the curtsies, it seems to be done when done at all for sometimes less than genuine reasons

[LBgirl]

OFOS Butches are hard to find. Too many punks out there claiming to be "gentlemen" when they really just need a good spanking. My 2 cents, lol.

[DomnNC]

Originally Posted by LBgirl

OFOS Butches are hard to find. Too many punks out there claiming to be "gentlemen" when they really just need a good spanking. My 2 cents, lol.

Chuckles, that gave me a lil laugh, thanks. I consider myself to be a gentleman. I open doors for the ladies I might happen to be out and about with. I wait until they are seated and if need be if it is a chair type sitting, help them with their chair. If it's winter time then I help them get their coat on. If it's chilly out and they have forgotten to wear a warm jacket I've been known to give them mine and insist that they take it. I will let them order first in restaurants unless they wish that I order for them, then I do that as well. If I'm riding a bus or some other similiar vehicle, if a lady is standing I will give her my seat. Those are just a few of the things I do.

But you're right, I think that as the generations have passed that being taught manners, politeness and what it is to be a gentleman or a lady has been tossed by the wayside by the mememe generations.

[PumaJ]

If being over a certain age and being of the opinion that using good manners shows respect for another makes one "old school", then I surely qualify! LOL!

Personally, I've always found it awkward when someone tries to help me on with my coat. I just am kind of a "dork" in that area and always manage to somehow get tangled up:-( However, I do appreciate it when anyone opens a door for me, or holds open a door for me. That's why I do so for others as well. But, there is something very different going on than mere manners when a Butch is the one getting the door for a Femme.

The wonderful Butches I've had the honor & pleasure of being partnered with in my life have been feminists, as I am. Yet, the wanting to open doors for me, hold my chair out, and all of the other gracious gestures they've done for me, just always seem to spring from their very beingness. Seems to me to be a quality that has somehow been encoded in them. Just as graciously allowing and receiving such gifts has been encoded in me, as a Femme. I'm definitely not the same way in my interactions with men, meaning I do my best to not allow or encourage such actions. Not that I want to be treated rudely. I just don't want to be treated differently by a man just because I'm a woman.

Yet, I would never stop a Butch from opening the door for me, or "laying her/hys coat" across the puddle for me to walk across. In my perception, we are both energetically empowered during such an exchange. It is part of the dance we do together. The dance that creates and completes a circle of feminine/masculine power between us that enriches, nourishes, and empowers each of us. That being said, my personal feminism comes out when I do the same sorts of gestures for the Butches I've been with. The fact that doing so often takes them by surprise is kind of fun and I've used it as a way to be playful.

Well, I could on a bit on that theme, I think, but I won't do that here. I will end by saying that I'm all for good manners. I believe they are a key factor in the civilized behavior of human beings, serving as a type of social lubricant that allows us to get along more easily with each other in our busy, hectic and increasingly crowded cities.

Off my soap box now.

[OS Butch]

Well, LB, I might add the are Femmes out there claiming to be OFOS and are just plain OHM (Old High Maintenance )

I really must point out that claiming a gentleman is a wide range of possibilities.....From Not farting or scratching inappropriate places to the Ward Clever being waited on hand and foot types.

I was told I am not OS. The truth of it was I was not her type of old school, she wanted Ward Clever type, which is not me.....I am not at the other end of the spectrum either I am in the middle.

For me it is very much the ying and yang, the dance. I am just likely to bring a cup of coffee or tea to my lady as she would for me. It the compliment of being joined. Her accepting me for doing things she is quite capable of doing, but appreciates that I get great joy out of doing them for her.

So, be specific when entertaining a Butchly sort to determine what kind of OFOS you really like.

My 2 cents
OSB

Originally Posted by LBgirl

OFOS Butches are hard to find. Too many punks out there claiming to be "gentlemen" when they really just need a good spanking. My 2 cents, lol.

[LBgirl]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

Well, LB, I might add the are Femmes out there claiming to be OFOS and are just plain OHM (Old High Maintenance )

I really must point out that claiming a gentleman is a wide range of possibilities.....From Not farting or scratching inappropriate places to the Ward Clever being waited on hand and foot types.

I was told I am not OS. The truth of it was I was not her type of old school, she wanted Ward Clever type, which is not me.....I am not at the other end of the spectrum either I am in the middle.

For me it is very much the ying and yang, the dance. I am just likely to bring a cup of coffee or tea to my lady as she would for me. It the compliment of being joined. Her accepting me for doing things she is quite capable of doing, but appreciates that I get great joy out of doing them for her.

So, be specific when entertaining a Butchly sort to determine what kind of OFOS you really like.

My 2 cents
OSB

I am in total agreement with you. It's not the act/s that impress me, it's the consideration and the dynamics of interaction that occur. Someone could hold a door for me and still be a complete cad. Ward Cleaver would be too boring. Now Ward Cleaver with a healthy dose of leather sprinkled in is a whole different story...