Trans Men and Butches Raising Femme Daughters.

Galahad · 02-27-2011, 10:35 PM

This is a great parenting, teaching, counseling, etc. book and will help you see some of the issues she's going to have to deal with very soon and hopefully help you see ways to help her through.
"Reviving Ophelia- Saving the Selves of Adolescent Girls"

raising2alone · 02-28-2011, 12:54 AM

Hi all,

This is an awesome topic, I too have a daughter, even though she is only 2, she is decidely feminine. She has a twin brother so it's a balancing act most of the time to nurture them both in whatever direction the day takes them. I must say it has been very enlightening thus far. We all learned in school about nurture versus nature and what pushes our little ones. I have to say it is very much nature to this point. Since I have two seperate genders, I buy toys that they just want, no thought as to if it is a truck or doll. They have equal access to all of them and they have truly gravitated toward what society would consider "gender specific" toys. My daughter loves dolls and my son cars and trains. Being FtM, I have to be careful not to add my own bias when they are playing

. We all play with everything, from doll houses to trains, but left alone, they know what they prefer. My daughter is very nurturing and a caretaker and my son is a little self centered...ok, time for the ladies to chime in there...LOL.

Anyway, this will be a great thread to help me as my daughter ages and yes, she will travel many paths as will he and I am blessed already and will love them without judgement and totally unconditionally all of their lives. To me they were spiritual beings long before they came to this earth in their little bodies. I let them explore and ask questions already and they are little sponges.

I want to thank all of the women on here that will become role models if even through cyber space for my daughter as she continues to travel through her journey.....and my son as well. I do firmly believe it takes a village to raise a child so I need many villages

. (Also thanking everyone that will post, we can all learn from one another to be sure

).

Peace and blessings all....

Converse · 02-28-2011, 01:05 PM

Many years ago I developed a relationship with a woman whose toddler, who had been living with her father overseas, came to live with us. She was the most magical child, her speech hadn’t properly developed and she hadn’t learned any English- she had been use to sleeping where and when she liked and ate the same way. A dental check up showed that all of her baby teeth were full of cavities as all she had known was candy and soda.

Her mother abdicated all responsibility, and so although I was happy to support the household so that the little one had a full time parent at home, in truth her raising was left to me. She was introduced to eating utensils and vegetables, a speech therapist, a bed with bedtime stories, the zoo, swimming lessons and surfing and joined the local baseball team – for Christmas she asked Santa for a tool belt like mine, and together we made house repairs and worked on the car. When she needed clothes I took her shopping for comfortable stuff- which in my mind could only be found in the boys sections.

One day her mother said “I’ve just been watching the child playing with her friend- she pulls out her friend’s chair and holds the door open for her. She doesn’t know how to do her hair, and she even walks like you. She has no interest in dresses or nice shoes or in anything remotely feminine- she is older now and you are not the right influence for her, its time for me to be a mother and for you to take a step back.”

I watched the Saturday baseball game be replaced with shopping at the mall, comfortable cargo pants be replaced with spray on jeans, and the sound of a drill replaced with hiphop music and chatter about spas and hair salons- she seemed happy.

The child found a new best friend, whose name was scribbled everywhere, on her school books and bag, I noticed she even had an imitation tattoo of the girls name on her arm. One day I picked them both up from the mall, the friend held open the car door for the child, then walked around the other side to let herself in-the friend looked at me and said “one day I’m going to get my hair cut short like yours and get a leather jacket like yours too and a truck like this one”, the child smiled at me in the rear view mirror.

Shortly afterwards the mother said she didn’t like the child’s new friend, and a little time later she emptied the house and the bank account and left to marry a man. On the phone I was told I wouldn’t be allowed to speak with the child or know where they had moved to, as the child needed to separate from me in order to bond with the new husband and become part of a normal family. I never saw her again.

How much is nurture and how much is nature, I guess we will never know- but I do know that when it was brought to my attention that I didn’t know how to raise a little girl I felt guilty that because I didn’t know about “girl” things I had somehow robbed her of becoming who she was suppose to be. But today, this is what I know, I know that I taught her that anything is possible, and that she was strong enough to do anything- and when I close my eyes and worry about the life she may be living right now- I remember that one day she will be old enough to make her own decisions, and more importantly strong enough to make them, regardless of what anyone has to say about it.

Bard · 02-28-2011, 01:49 PM

My Goose is now 7 going on 17 at times I swear and me I have worried about this a bit as I have never been feminine in my life and my ex well she is the childs bio mm and she is more I guess andro. Abby is a smart advanced child I want her to make her own way with all the support her Mommie and I can give and love unconditional love. But abby has Desd to look to as well and she does they talk makeup nails and all that sort that I just don't get I will be going shopping with my goose being her support no mater what like I said she is advanced and calls desd her step mom she loves and excepts us all just as we are and we do the same So I think we are doing something right

tuffboi29 · 02-28-2011, 06:27 PM

What beautiful responses.

Even though I get begged into all the pretty little things, I've tried to maintain the "girls can do anything a bay can do" motto.

She has her big trucks (pink lol) for the sandbox. I took her once to the hardware store so she could have her own tools to help me with small jobs around the house. I'll be damned if they didn't have a pink tool box with pink tiny tools. They even had tiny pink mechanics gloves. We got those "'Cause I don't like when my hands get all nasty!!!

She's definitely not going to be on the side of the road with a flat waiting for a tow truck. LOL

I'm hoping to give her the skills to be completely self sufficient and let her maintain her "princess status" so to speak.

I raised two boys for quite some time in their lives. I had no problems teaching them the "boys don't hit girls, hold the doors open for ladies, ect".
I grew up watching my father's mannerisms closely, so I think for me it was "easier" to bring them up as strong young gentlemen.

I think I'm just nervous because it was easier for me with the boys. I don't fake my excitement when she gets excited over things. I tell her how nice her new haircut looks and the clothes she gets. I've sat in on the tea parties.
What worries me is those teen years are coming on so fast and I'm starting to find myself a little lost. And who the hell is Eye Carly???

I don't know...I just want to do right by her and if I have to form a dang femme troupe of my own to help her get through the transition into womanhood I guess that's what I'm going to do.

princessbelle · 02-28-2011, 07:22 PM

Wow what a beautiful thread and what beautiful encouragement and advice you have been given.

As very much a girly girl who raised boys, i can sympathize with your worries.

I had the opposite issues. How do i raise boys when i know NOTHING about them. It is quite ironic, don't you think? But it also opens a world to us we don't know about and it gives us the oportunity to grow and inspire and be inspired to parent those of the *opposite* sex if you will or at least of the *opposite* gender.

It is a great experience and i believe you are, have and will continue to do a wonderful job. The most important thing is that your heart is in the right place. Your faith in your child is 110% and that you give quality of time.

I had the "pleasure" of becoming boy scout leader. Yes, me. At first the 15 boys in the troup were not very pleased with me teaching them to to make pot holders and cute Christmas ornaments. But, i read the manuals, i reached out for help and i worked at it. They ended up wanting me back the next year. I hung in there, i listened, and i learned from them.

Then there was grammer school. Anytime there was a field trip I went. It never failed that i was always assigned to 5-10 boys to keep up with due to me having boys and the teachers would give parents of girls ...girls and those of boys...boys. Logical, but gosh i was out of my element. Again i hung in there, i listened, and i learned from them.

Teenage years....oh my. Girls, cars, Girls. It was strange being the mother of boys and hearing their versions of things i could remember going through on the opposite side of the fence. Dances....."mom, cindy wants me to ask her to the dance but i really would prefer going with tonya." "Mom, i have a crush on susan how can i tell if she likes me". "do you think it is time i get Julie a ring?" Birds and bees talks, birth control talks, std talks....All sorts of things. I hung in there, i listened, and I learned from them.

Now, grown men. One married, both in college. They are respectable, proud of their gay mom, voting citizens, spiritual, compassionate, wonderful sons that love their momma. I won't go on and on about how proud i am...but you get the point. Did i make mistakes? OMG yes.

The very best advice i can give you is this:
Be the parent that is there for her when she needs a friend, but always be the parent .

You are doing great. You will get through it. The years you are going through right now are over in an instant. Cherish all you can. Reach out when you need to....we all need it sometimes.
Breath.
Hang in there, listen and learn from her.

Butchlei · 10-09-2011, 03:37 AM

I am the proud Dadda of 3 girls. My two oldest are 9 and 6 ... and yes they are girly girls. Lets say that last year we went to Disney for their birthdays (2 days apart) so they could dress up as princesses and have Brunch in the castle with all the "real" princesses. I get the question every morning from my oldest: " Dadda how do I look? "

The one thing I know is that they are unique ... my 6 year old wanted to cut her hair and has now a boy cut ... she said she didnt want to bother "doing her hair" every morning ... she loves playing with dirt and climbing trees ... Kids at school started to tease her that she looked like a boy ... she didn't blink ... she told them she was a girl ... teasing was over ...

Do I worry? Not really .... i know they are their own person ... with their own personalities ... I just love them just the way they are .... the same way they love me ... Dadda ... the butch .... who sometimes looks "handsome" but not "pretty" ... LOL

Now we have a 4 month old ... she looks like a bold old man without teeth ... can't wait to see her grow ....makes me smile thinking about it .... i just feel blessed for the opportunity of being part of the miracle of life !

02-28-2011, 12:54 AM	#2
raising2alone Junior Member How Do You Identify?: Trans Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Name says it all Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Kansas Posts: 28 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 5 Thanked 43 Times in 20 Posts Rep Power: 15142	Great advice Hi all, This is an awesome topic, I too have a daughter, even though she is only 2, she is decidely feminine. She has a twin brother so it's a balancing act most of the time to nurture them both in whatever direction the day takes them. I must say it has been very enlightening thus far. We all learned in school about nurture versus nature and what pushes our little ones. I have to say it is very much nature to this point. Since I have two seperate genders, I buy toys that they just want, no thought as to if it is a truck or doll. They have equal access to all of them and they have truly gravitated toward what society would consider "gender specific" toys. My daughter loves dolls and my son cars and trains. Being FtM, I have to be careful not to add my own bias when they are playing . We all play with everything, from doll houses to trains, but left alone, they know what they prefer. My daughter is very nurturing and a caretaker and my son is a little self centered...ok, time for the ladies to chime in there...LOL. Anyway, this will be a great thread to help me as my daughter ages and yes, she will travel many paths as will he and I am blessed already and will love them without judgement and totally unconditionally all of their lives. To me they were spiritual beings long before they came to this earth in their little bodies. I let them explore and ask questions already and they are little sponges. I want to thank all of the women on here that will become role models if even through cyber space for my daughter as she continues to travel through her journey.....and my son as well. I do firmly believe it takes a village to raise a child so I need many villages . (Also thanking everyone that will post, we can all learn from one another to be sure ). Peace and blessings all....

02-28-2011, 01:05 PM	#3
Converse Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Preferred Pronoun?: Hy Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Vancouver Posts: 147 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 323 Thanked 684 Times in 105 Posts Rep Power: 2551406	Many years ago I developed a relationship with a woman whose toddler, who had been living with her father overseas, came to live with us. She was the most magical child, her speech hadn’t properly developed and she hadn’t learned any English- she had been use to sleeping where and when she liked and ate the same way. A dental check up showed that all of her baby teeth were full of cavities as all she had known was candy and soda. Her mother abdicated all responsibility, and so although I was happy to support the household so that the little one had a full time parent at home, in truth her raising was left to me. She was introduced to eating utensils and vegetables, a speech therapist, a bed with bedtime stories, the zoo, swimming lessons and surfing and joined the local baseball team – for Christmas she asked Santa for a tool belt like mine, and together we made house repairs and worked on the car. When she needed clothes I took her shopping for comfortable stuff- which in my mind could only be found in the boys sections. One day her mother said “I’ve just been watching the child playing with her friend- she pulls out her friend’s chair and holds the door open for her. She doesn’t know how to do her hair, and she even walks like you. She has no interest in dresses or nice shoes or in anything remotely feminine- she is older now and you are not the right influence for her, its time for me to be a mother and for you to take a step back.” I watched the Saturday baseball game be replaced with shopping at the mall, comfortable cargo pants be replaced with spray on jeans, and the sound of a drill replaced with hiphop music and chatter about spas and hair salons- she seemed happy. The child found a new best friend, whose name was scribbled everywhere, on her school books and bag, I noticed she even had an imitation tattoo of the girls name on her arm. One day I picked them both up from the mall, the friend held open the car door for the child, then walked around the other side to let herself in-the friend looked at me and said “one day I’m going to get my hair cut short like yours and get a leather jacket like yours too and a truck like this one”, the child smiled at me in the rear view mirror. Shortly afterwards the mother said she didn’t like the child’s new friend, and a little time later she emptied the house and the bank account and left to marry a man. On the phone I was told I wouldn’t be allowed to speak with the child or know where they had moved to, as the child needed to separate from me in order to bond with the new husband and become part of a normal family. I never saw her again. How much is nurture and how much is nature, I guess we will never know- but I do know that when it was brought to my attention that I didn’t know how to raise a little girl I felt guilty that because I didn’t know about “girl” things I had somehow robbed her of becoming who she was suppose to be. But today, this is what I know, I know that I taught her that anything is possible, and that she was strong enough to do anything- and when I close my eyes and worry about the life she may be living right now- I remember that one day she will be old enough to make her own decisions, and more importantly strong enough to make them, regardless of what anyone has to say about it. __________________ I don't act this way to change the world. I act this way so that the goddamn world won't change me! -Desert Hearts

02-28-2011, 01:49 PM	#4
Bard Family Man How Do You Identify?: TG Male Preferred Pronoun?: Masculine ones Relationship Status: She just gets me Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: ..... Posts: 2,828 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,997 Thanked 12,786 Times in 2,431 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	My Goose is now 7 going on 17 at times I swear and me I have worried about this a bit as I have never been feminine in my life and my ex well she is the childs bio mm and she is more I guess andro. Abby is a smart advanced child I want her to make her own way with all the support her Mommie and I can give and love unconditional love. But abby has Desd to look to as well and she does they talk makeup nails and all that sort that I just don't get I will be going shopping with my goose being her support no mater what like I said she is advanced and calls desd her step mom she loves and excepts us all just as we are and we do the same So I think we are doing something right __________________ This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill Fifteen percent concentrated power of will Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain And a hundred percent reason to remember the name! Give yourself over to absolute pleasure. Swim the warm waters of sins of the flesh - erotic nightmares beyond any measure, and sensual daydreams to treasure forever. Can't you just see it? Don't dream it, be it.

02-28-2011, 06:27 PM	#5
tuffboi29 Member How Do You Identify?: Queer..in the queer deffinition of the queer meaning of the queer word... Preferred Pronoun?: Mr. SuperTuff Relationship Status: Things happen... Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: somewhere over the rainbow Posts: 483 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 894 Thanked 684 Times in 293 Posts Rep Power: 93006	What beautiful responses. Even though I get begged into all the pretty little things, I've tried to maintain the "girls can do anything a bay can do" motto. She has her big trucks (pink lol) for the sandbox. I took her once to the hardware store so she could have her own tools to help me with small jobs around the house. I'll be damned if they didn't have a pink tool box with pink tiny tools. They even had tiny pink mechanics gloves. We got those "'Cause I don't like when my hands get all nasty!!! She's definitely not going to be on the side of the road with a flat waiting for a tow truck. LOL I'm hoping to give her the skills to be completely self sufficient and let her maintain her "princess status" so to speak. I raised two boys for quite some time in their lives. I had no problems teaching them the "boys don't hit girls, hold the doors open for ladies, ect". I grew up watching my father's mannerisms closely, so I think for me it was "easier" to bring them up as strong young gentlemen. I think I'm just nervous because it was easier for me with the boys. I don't fake my excitement when she gets excited over things. I tell her how nice her new haircut looks and the clothes she gets. I've sat in on the tea parties. What worries me is those teen years are coming on so fast and I'm starting to find myself a little lost. And who the hell is Eye Carly??? I don't know...I just want to do right by her and if I have to form a dang femme troupe of my own to help her get through the transition into womanhood I guess that's what I'm going to do. __________________ "Today we would pass through the scenes of our youth like travelers. We are burnt up by hard facts; like tradesmen we understand distinctions, and like butchers, necessities. We are no longer untroubled - we are indifferent. We might exist there; but, should we really live there?" ~Erich Maria Remarque "All Quiet on the Western Front" http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._4605968_n.jpg

02-28-2011, 07:22 PM	#6
princessbelle Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: femme Preferred Pronoun?: femme ones Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,100 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 29,380 Thanked 30,496 Times in 5,198 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	Wow what a beautiful thread and what beautiful encouragement and advice you have been given. As very much a girly girl who raised boys, i can sympathize with your worries. I had the opposite issues. How do i raise boys when i know NOTHING about them. It is quite ironic, don't you think? But it also opens a world to us we don't know about and it gives us the oportunity to grow and inspire and be inspired to parent those of the opposite sex if you will or at least of the opposite gender. It is a great experience and i believe you are, have and will continue to do a wonderful job. The most important thing is that your heart is in the right place. Your faith in your child is 110% and that you give quality of time. I had the "pleasure" of becoming boy scout leader. Yes, me. At first the 15 boys in the troup were not very pleased with me teaching them to to make pot holders and cute Christmas ornaments. But, i read the manuals, i reached out for help and i worked at it. They ended up wanting me back the next year. I hung in there, i listened, and i learned from them. Then there was grammer school. Anytime there was a field trip I went. It never failed that i was always assigned to 5-10 boys to keep up with due to me having boys and the teachers would give parents of girls ...girls and those of boys...boys. Logical, but gosh i was out of my element. Again i hung in there, i listened, and i learned from them. Teenage years....oh my. Girls, cars, Girls. It was strange being the mother of boys and hearing their versions of things i could remember going through on the opposite side of the fence. Dances....."mom, cindy wants me to ask her to the dance but i really would prefer going with tonya." "Mom, i have a crush on susan how can i tell if she likes me". "do you think it is time i get Julie a ring?" Birds and bees talks, birth control talks, std talks....All sorts of things. I hung in there, i listened, and I learned from them. Now, grown men. One married, both in college. They are respectable, proud of their gay mom, voting citizens, spiritual, compassionate, wonderful sons that love their momma. I won't go on and on about how proud i am...but you get the point. Did i make mistakes? OMG yes. The very best advice i can give you is this: Be the parent that is there for her when she needs a friend, but always be the parent . You are doing great. You will get through it. The years you are going through right now are over in an instant. Cherish all you can. Reach out when you need to....we all need it sometimes. Breath. Hang in there, listen and learn from her. __________________ ~ I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. ~ Maya Angelou

02-27-2011, 10:35 PM	#1
Galahad Member How Do You Identify?: do I have to? Relationship Status: single Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: I.E. Southern California Posts: 425 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,300 Thanked 339 Times in 151 Posts Rep Power: 1446604	This is a great parenting, teaching, counseling, etc. book and will help you see some of the issues she's going to have to deal with very soon and hopefully help you see ways to help her through. "Reviving Ophelia- Saving the Selves of Adolescent Girls"

10-09-2011, 03:37 AM	#7
Butchlei Junior Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Preferred Pronoun?: Lan Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New York City Posts: 13 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 0 Thanked 39 Times in 11 Posts Rep Power: 609405	I am the proud Dadda of 3 girls. My two oldest are 9 and 6 ... and yes they are girly girls. Lets say that last year we went to Disney for their birthdays (2 days apart) so they could dress up as princesses and have Brunch in the castle with all the "real" princesses. I get the question every morning from my oldest: " Dadda how do I look? " The one thing I know is that they are unique ... my 6 year old wanted to cut her hair and has now a boy cut ... she said she didnt want to bother "doing her hair" every morning ... she loves playing with dirt and climbing trees ... Kids at school started to tease her that she looked like a boy ... she didn't blink ... she told them she was a girl ... teasing was over ... Do I worry? Not really .... i know they are their own person ... with their own personalities ... I just love them just the way they are .... the same way they love me ... Dadda ... the butch .... who sometimes looks "handsome" but not "pretty" ... LOL Now we have a 4 month old ... she looks like a bold old man without teeth ... can't wait to see her grow ....makes me smile thinking about it .... i just feel blessed for the opportunity of being part of the miracle of life !