The Never-Ending Bathroom Debate

[Admin]

Originally Posted by Jess

I agree, women will prolly converse more than men in a public restroom. Too many assumptions of "tea-room" if men do anything more than nod in passing. They don't make small talk in bathrooms. Maybe it's the innate insecurity in women that they need to talk rather than just go "take care of business".. Maybe it's that same insecurity that makes them question "ANY"one who just needs to relieve themselves.

I mean really.. it's not like a destination, afterall.. it's literally a Piss-stop.

I've used men's rooms/ womens rooms/ unisex and honestly I hate having to use any. I like to piss at home in my bathroom where it's clean. Do not expect much of an apology when I am not visiting.. I am simply dumping and movin on. It ain't like we gotta be friends. LOL

Jess,

This post was reported for sexist statements and is highly problematic on a site that is woman-positive. Sexist statements are against the TOS because we are trying to promote a positive environment for women, female-people, and allies.

Women are no more "innately" insecure than men, and statements like the above only serve to support gross and false stereotypes against women.


Thanks,
Admin

[BullDog]

I just finished re-reading the first few pages of this thread. Many of the incidents do appear to be more about mocking the person rather than genuine fear. However the genuine fear still exists and the threat of violence for women at the hands of men is very real.

This is a perfect example where women, butches (women/female, male) and trans women and men are all being subjected to sexism- sometimes reinforcing it, sometimes being made unwelcome or the victim or it, sometimes maybe both at the same time. Men may also go into protective mode to enforce it- there may be instances when it is a good thing for men to step up and others where it is not.

Women upholding the binary are not really doing themselves any favors- it just reinforces sexism for all of us and doesn't give women any more freedoms or higher status in a sexist world. I maintain that heterosexual women would experience more freedom if butch women were recognized as legitimate women, and that I would experience more freedom to be who I am if heterosexual women were not put into little boxes. Obviously there has been some progress here. It expands the possibilities for everyone. The same is true for other genders. It expands the possibilities of who someone can be and how they can express themselves and would take a lot of the burden away from having to reinforce gender in such confined and constrained ways. However when it comes to the bathroom issue this would also need to address violence against women as well as gender stereotypes.

The root of misogyny, homophobia and transphobia is sexism. The anxiety and uneasiness about those who don't fit neatly into the man/woman boxes can manifest itself in many ways. Some will be subjected to more unfair treatment depending on the situation, but there really are no "winners" here. That's why I say transphobia and homophobia will never be wiped out with sexism and misogyny still in place and women being second class citizens all over the world.

I still maintain masculine looking people do need to tread gently and smile when at all possible, but we certainly have the right to pee and be safe as well. I think holding your head high is also a good thing if it is safe to do so.

[Jess]

I sincerely did not intend for my statement to sound sexist. I am one of those folks who does "get it" that when I walk into a "ladies" room I am often not seen as someone who should be there.

I don't really believe women are innately insecure so that was a very poor choice of words. For that I apologize.

I don't know truly why folks can't just take a piss in whatever bathroom is available. I don't know why they even put signs on the doors. Seems like if a plane travelling for 16 plus hours can only have 2 toilets for 400 or so people can just have a sign for "occupied" or not, why can't all bathrooms?

I offer an apology and I do see where this might have sounded a sexism alarm. Sorry to derail the thread.

[Nat]

I remember walking into a small restroom (2 stalls) in a coffee house once where a masculine female-bodied person (don't want to guess at identity) was washing up, and I am both used to masculine-presenting female-bodied folks and and often attracted, so my first thought in those situations is not "OMG there's a rapist killer man in the bathroom." What I did notice was how this person tensed up on my entrance, and I was pretty sure why. I wished there was some way I could set this person at ease, but realized quickly the best I could do was just go into stall. I think I smiled, but this person's eyes were very studiously fixed on the faucet.

I don't remember who posted it, but it reminded me of one of the posts by a transman in another thread a while back - about the first time he realized a woman was afraid of him when he ran to catch an elevator.

I guess it's one of the sad things about femme invisibility that in a non-queer place, you can walk into a bathroom and unintentionally scare or stress out a person whom you would rather reassure.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Jess

Seems like if a plane travelling for 16 plus hours can only have 2 toilets for 400 or so people can just have a sign for "occupied" or not, why can't all bathrooms?

I have wondered the same thing for a long, long time. They can even put a couple of sinks just outside between the two doors for people who are coming in solely to wash their hands. I do that quite a bit when pumping gas.

You walk up and see a little recessed area out of the way. Outside are 2-3 sinks. To the left is a door (similar to an airplane door) that holds a toilet and sink. To the right, the same.

Ta da....

[SelfMadeMan]

I noticed, after doing a couple panels/talks at the University of Wisconsin, and then going back for our daughter's ATP performance there this week, that most of the facilities on campus are gender neutral. I think that rocks!

[dreadgeek]

In a couple of months, my company is moving down the street. Right now, we are the only people in the building and everyone knows me. There are two women's rooms on the first floor---one large and one small. If at all possible, I'll use the small one. When we move, we'll be in a building with another company, around people I don't know. Chances are we won't have our own bathroom and so it will be starting from square one.

All of the other women in the office know me and so they don't give me any grief, but now there will likely be another group of women that I don't work with and it'll start all over again. Needless to say, my enthusiasm for that circumstance is nonexistent.

Cheers
Aj

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Thinker

I have wondered the same thing for a long, long time. They can even put a couple of sinks just outside between the two doors for people who are coming in solely to wash their hands. I do that quite a bit when pumping gas.

You walk up and see a little recessed area out of the way. Outside are 2-3 sinks. To the left is a door (similar to an airplane door) that holds a toilet and sink. To the right, the same.

Ta da....

I think this would be a good idea, and you really could make it work. I was thinking that it would be difficult because public washrooms are usually made as such to serve as many people as possible at once (large men's/women's washrooms with multiple stalls vs. one-person washrooms). But then I was thinking that if a more European model was put into place you could probably pull it off.

In Germany and Holland (probably the rest of western Europe as well) washroom stalls aren't like in Canada where there's a huge space under the door and big spaces in between the hinges/wall (always hated that). They're more like the stalls in airplanes where the unit is completely closed off so you can't see out/no one can see in. Completely private.

If you follow that model of stall instead of the typical North American stall which might invite voyeurs etc. there is nothing stopping from having washrooms out in the open without being closed off into male/female washrooms. Just have a series of entirely closed off stalls with an occupied/unoccupied sign like planes/trains without the group of stalls being hidden away in a separate room[s].

This isn't entirely unprecedented either. I did see some similar concepts in some German cities and in Holland: outdoor urinals. Basically, in the middle of a city square or whatnot there would be a cluster of outdoor, plastic urinals (urinals forming a triangular or similar cluster so that the backs of the urinals were facing each other, and walls on the side of each urinal more concealing than normal). This way people didn't need to go into a store or something to use the washroom. Also saw some dixies in town squares without male/female signs.

I really do think this could be done on a larger scale, and would make a lot more sense than hidden gender restricted washrooms. It would also be safer because would-be offenders would not have the luxury of hiding behind walls when entering the washroom of the opposite sex, because there would just be a row of single user dixie-like stalls.

[Linus]

Ender: I do agree but I have to toss a monkey wrench in it: I can pretty much guarantee that even if such washrooms existed here, someone will cry "But women could be raped!" and that would shut down such ideas. As long as the FUDing (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) discussions continue, I'd doubt we'd ever see truly gender neutral washrooms on a large scale here in the US. This nation is a nation of causing/propagating FUD. It's what drives so much of it.

And that is the sad part.

[BullDog]

Linus, women do get raped. It's not fear, uncertainty or doubt. So what exactly are you saying?

[Linus]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Linus, women do get raped. It's not fear, uncertainty or doubt. So what exactly are you saying?

Sorry I should have been clearer. I know women get raped. So do men. But to assume that ALL rapes occur in the washroom (as posited by the right wing and such) is hyperbole.

The majority of rape occurs in the home. Since rape is often the reason to keep washrooms gender specific, why not keep homes gender specific?

[BullDog]

OK, well I have never heard of the right wing positing that all rapes occur in the washroom. I do think it's quite clear the right wing doesn't have women's safety as a top priority given what they are trying to get passed through the U.S. Congress right now.

[Linus]

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/...n-bathroom-ads

[BullDog]

Ok thanks Linus. The logic of the commercials don't make sense of course. The man going into the bathroom after the child goes in would not be "legal." That's absurd.

Also what if they show a boy going into a men's bathroom instead of a girl, and show the scary looking dude going in after him? That was already "legal."

I don't think a child that age should be going into a bathroom alone, and I don't think the children should be playing unsupervised.

[Linus]

Yup. That's what I was trying to point out. Florida's attempt (I think this was attempted in 2007/2008) at a gender neutral law in regards to washroom shows a lot of what the right seem to think of washroom neutrality and, in particular, the "threat" of transwomen in the woman's washroom.

[BullDog]

Ok, got it. Trans people are not the threat and rapists and child molesters are not going to change their ways based on any laws.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Ok, got it. Trans people are not the threat and rapists and child molesters are not going to change their ways based on any laws.

Yup. But at the same time, to suggest that behind every door is a rapist is a bit extreme (which is what the ads that ran in Florida and elsewhere suggested).

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Linus

Ender: I do agree but I have to toss a monkey wrench in it: I can pretty much guarantee that even if such washrooms existed here, someone will cry "But women could be raped!" and that would shut down such ideas. As long as the FUDing (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) discussions continue, I'd doubt we'd ever see truly gender neutral washrooms on a large scale here in the US. This nation is a nation of causing/propagating FUD. It's what drives so much of it.

And that is the sad part.

Linus, actually I think the suggestion I've made might actually solve the problem of women potentially being sexually assaulted in public washrooms. Basically, what I'm suggesting is that instead of bathrooms stalls (such as those found in European nations rather than in North American nations) being placed in separated male/female washrooms, they're not placed in a room behind a door at all. Basically, the washroom remains visible from the outside (have something like this in Europe in those open "pay" washrooms/showers where you put a coin into a slot, go through a turnstile where employees give you a towel if you're showering in a single-person unit or allow you into a row of floor-to-ceiling washroom stalls. The stalls are then solid ceiling-to-floor stalls like in western Europe, with strong bolts/locks that are difficult to break through, and only big enough for one person. Nobody can get into the stall when someone is using it, and once you get out of the stall to wash your hands, you're mostly in public view making it extremly difficult for assault to occur without the establishment's employees/security noticing.

Also, you could actually add security rather easily to a washroom like this. If you've been to Europe then you've probably seen that many washrooms have an employee of an establishment paid specifically to sit in a washroom and collect change from patrons using the washroom/paper towel (depending on where you go). I've actually seen a few bars and clubs in Toronto adopt something similar, making the washroom safer for lone women using the washroom. I think WrongBar has something like that if I remember correctly. You could very easily replace such a position by a makeshift security guard who would promote both public safety and a more environmentally friendly approach (paying small change for paper towel, instead of people using huge gobs of it like they often do).

I wish I could find pictures online of the model I'm talking about, because with this post I realise I've actually seen similar washrooms in Europe that are totally open with a series of closed off stalls, and employees handing out towels to dry your hands or after a shower.

Does what I've written make sense? Not sure if i've explained it well enough.

[Medusa]

I'm glad you mentioned this June. I actually had a conversation with someone a couple years back about the whole "male child" issue in restrooms, branching off from a larger conversation about Michigan Women's Fest and how male children have to stay in a completely different camp.

If I had a boy child? There is NO way I'd let him go in a public restroom alone in this day and age. I'd be terrified of something happening.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by June

I did not let my son go to public bathrooms unattended until he was almost 10 years old, and then I stood outside the door and waited.

Up until then, I took him into the "Ladies" room with me. He was my child and I didn't care if it made people uncomfortable.

You were right on to do this. Other people can just deal with it!