Do Businesses Have the Right to Refuse Service Based on Moral/Religious Objections?

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by suebee

Adorable, what do you mean when you say "Canada is just as bad". It's a pretty general statement.

I presume she meant because both Canada and the US had abusive residential schools that First Nations children were shipped off to. (since that's what the link she posted was about. well, the link was about the ones in Canada she didn't mention the ones in the US - although I'm certain she's aware of those schools in the US.)

Canada and the US share some really abhorrent historical practices. We both had slavery. We both had abusive church run and government funded residential schools with the aim to "westernize" First Nations children. We both had internment camps for Japanese, German, and Italian Americans and Canadians during WWII.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I presume she meant because both Canada and the US had abusive residential schools that First Nations children were shipped off to. (since that's what the link she posted was about. well, the link was about the ones in Canada she didn't mention the ones in the US - although I'm certain she's aware of those schools in the US.)

Canada and the US share some really abhorrent historical practices. We both had slavery. We both had abusive church run and government funded residential schools with the aim to "westernize" First Nations children. We both had internment camps for Japanese, German, and Italian Americans and Canadians during WWII.

Oh, I understand what she meant. But it's much too easy to post a link to a page called "hidden from history" - which sounds sensationalist - and then abandon ship. The story of the residential schools was FAR from hidden, though it might come as a surprise to Americans, who aren't taught as much Canadian history as we are American. Every time a conversation about racism comes up it seems that somebody posts a link to prove Canada had internment camps for Japanese-Canadians or that slavery existed here too. I think the difference is the level of racial tension that exists in our two countries at the present time. For some reason it hasn't evolved the same way for both of us. The current racial climate is much more volitile in the States than Canada. And I think the way we deal with civil rights is different too. The subject of this thread is a fine example of this. Individual rights are protected with such ferocity in the States that collective rights seem to suffer. Whereas we seem much more accepting of legislation of rights of groups of people as a WAY to ensure individual rights in Canada. I've certainly believed this for a long time, and this thread has served to reiterate this perception for me.

[Toughy]

laughin.....little sensitive are we suebee edited to add: making laws does not "insure' individual rights

that little mohawk avatar could certainly be considered racist as hell............so whose sensitivities should be legislated?

I was always told that you can't legislate morality. All these protected class laws are doing is attempting to force everyone to think the 'right way' as defined by the government. The Nazis, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot were really good at doing just that.

Under the current legislative landscape, I have no choice but to support protected classes while I work to change and be creative about how to effect equality for everyone.

[suebee]

I am as passionate in my posts as others are sarcastic and disrespectful Toughy. I debate topics with Adorable every day on facebook. I have no worries about posting a strongly worded response to her post. I know she'll actually DEBATE it if she decides to come back. It's too bad you weren't curious about the differences between our cultures. It might give you a little food for thought.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by suebee

I am as passionate in my posts as others are sarcastic and disrespectful Toughy. I debate topics with Adorable every day on facebook. I have no worries about posting a strongly worded response to her post. I know she'll actually DEBATE it if she decides to come back. It's too bad you weren't curious about the differences between our cultures. It might give you a little food for thought.

good grief it was just a little teasing..........

<shaking my head>

[adorable]

Sue, can I borrow a million coins?

My post about Canada was a direct response to Ender's post. I just wanted to point out that Canada does have a history, as most countries, including the US. My extensive research for that one sentence post was a google search for "canadian atrocities" because I assumed there were some. I felt like Ender was singing 'Oh, Canada' - which is fine - but we all have our warts.

The US isn't some horrible place that does horrible things to people IMO. We are one country of many, a big one with lots of money and a powerful military, and our dirty laundry gets thrown around more than others.

There is a reason there isn't peace in the Middle East. Very little of that has to do with America. It has more to do with thousands of years of history that we, here, learn about in college. Families and tribes in the middle east have actually been LIVING it from the time they are born. A very different reality and hard for most of us to understand.

Germany has a much longer history then we do, as do many places around the world where mass atrocities have happened at the hands of government. To try to say that WE are on par in any way seems nonsensical to me. We have done bad things as a people. We do bad things as a people. We all have. We all do. We haven't been doing it nearly as long. That isn't an excuse for bad behavior, but at the very least we all need to acknowledge our own dirt before we start throwing stones. (I didn't feel like Ender was attacking the US necessarily - but there did seem to be a little bit of Canada is better then all these places including the US where bad things have happened. That may or may not have been his point.)

Native Americans in this country got fucked over long before anyone else. Same in Canada too. Indigenous people are still getting screwed in the Amazon and Africa. History repeats itself, over and over. In America we can say that we learn at the speed of light compared to other countries. Look at how far our society has come since 1787. And we built a country where you can walk four blocks and pass a synagogue, a baptist church, an adult book store, a catholic church and mosque. That to me is powerful.

The right for a business to refuse service to people may not be ideal for US (you and me) who might get discriminated against. I'll take it today, argue about it tonight and hope it changes tomorrow. And unlike many places in the world I have hope that it actually might. There are pockets of ignorance. I may die at the hands of an idiot. I will not die at the hands of a government official for being queer. (I realize that some minorities may not have that security btw)

Not everyone is thinking that tonight as they try to sleep with bombs flying over their homes. Just like their parents did. Their grandparents did. Their great grandparents did. Their great-great-great-great-great grandparents did.

[suebee]

I agree with everything except the right of a business to discriminate. I think any business should be able to decide who they serve UNLESS it is based on discrimination of an identified group. (we've already covered who this might include/who it does include under Canadian law)
Sooooo ......I guess we're back to square one! lol

BTW - my American dollar fetched me exactly ninty-five cents in Canada on Saturday.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by suebee

I agree with everything except the right of a business to discriminate. I think any business should be able to decide who they serve UNLESS it is based on discrimination of an identified group. (we've already covered who this might include/who it does include under Canadian law)
Sooooo ......I guess we're back to square one! lol

BTW - my American dollar fetched me exactly ninty-five cents in Canada on Saturday.

I will never forget the time I walked into a casino and my first quarter won me $700!!!! It wasn't until I took my pile of quarters to the cage & cashed in that I remembered I was in Canada.

I cried. So enjoy your windfall.

I don't think that businesses should discriminate against groups of people. I covered this in my "why I like protected classes" post. I do like Canada's gay marriage for all law and that everyone has health coverage. Apparently, we aren't taught much about Canadian history either. I did write a paper in the 3rd grade on Saskatchewan. I picked it because I liked the name. But I don't ever remember a class being offered on Canadian history ever.

That is odd now that I think about it. Why is that?

[AtLast]

I love Canada- great northern neighbor. however, it is not without black slavery as part of its own history and economy. In fact, Canada brought anti-slavery rules into its government in the 1830's via the British Crown, not as an independent country. Before the US, but not much before. It has a dark history concerning its native peoples as well.

Developed, industrialized nations, especially western, share many shameful practices. I feel like the important things that we need to to in order to change the effects of things like slavery and discrimination on all fronts is where we need to concentrate. Not many places in the world that don't have blood on "their" hands, historically.


http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...=A1ARTA0007449

Addition- As we are discussing in this thread, the "allies"- formed by the UN security counsel is bombing in Libya. Canada and Britian along with the US are involved. Yet, which of the 3 will be criticized the most about this?

[suebee]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I love Canada- great northern neighbor. however, it is not without black slavery as part of its own history and economy. In fact, Canada brought anti-slavery rules into its government in the 1830's via the British Crown, not as an independent country. Before the US, but not much before. It has a dark history concerning its native peoples as well.

Developed, industrialized nations, especially western, share many shameful practices. I feel like the important things that we need to to in order to change the effects of things like slavery and discrimination on all fronts is where we need to concentrate. Not many places in the world that don't have blood on "their" hands, historically.


http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...=A1ARTA0007449

I guess I have to be very clear - and I've posted this here and in other threads: Canada is certainly not lily-white as far as it's history is concerned. But it seems to have evolved differently in so much as the U.S. has a much more prevelant problem with race relations today. I'm not saying that there isn't racism here either, but there is a tension in the States that always seems just below the boiling point. Is it because the practice of slavery, and therefore the population descended from them was so much larger? Is it because of the way that the U.S. declared it's independence and subsequently wrote a document that greatly valorized individual rights over collective? I don't know. But there are differences between the two countries today, and I think the laws against discrimination - such as the one first discussed by the OP are a reflection of those differences.

Food for thought, for sure.