Reclaiming Androgyny & The Text Book Definition

[BullDog]

I do embrace my masculinity, but I can see why many butch women do not since it continues to be equated with male most of the time, including in butch femme circles.

I do think of androgyny as being a blend of masculine and feminine as opposed to neither.

Good topic.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I do embrace my masculinity, but I can see why many butch women do not since it continues to be equated with male most of the time, including in butch femme circles.

I do think of androgyny as being a blend of masculine and feminine as opposed to neither.

Good topic.

A blend and I believe it can be a much more fluid manner to identify or describe. Back in "my day" it was used positively and carried with it a sense of "equality"- well, within my "circles."

I have never experienced so much slicing and dicing of gender identity as I have within the B-F community. Not my favorite aspect of it. Although, sometimes I honestly think it is simply how people try to find their comfort zone with gender. That is a neutral state to me- not positive or negative, simply musing and figuring out something.

Why some things get so charged is amazing to me. I do embrace my own masculinity, but see it as stemming from the feminine (which is really a personal spiritual concept). I don't view either as good or bad.

As June brought up, I don't know why we in the US are so damn focused on such narrow definitions of gender. To me, this is something that ought to be the height of diversity.

[princessbelle]

I have this thought, just my own way of seeing the seemingly real push to identify online to basically how butch you are vs. how femme.

"I identify as this or that or i don't identify in any group or don't ask me...i am me. "

You know when *we* go to a gay bar for instance, people don't run around with name tags on that say *ftm* or *androgynous* or *butch and prefer she* etc. You are either attracted to someone or you aren't, at the beginning anyway. Besides the fact of knowing that person on a deeper level, the first thing we honestly notice is the way they look, react to people, talk, and or *especially for me* their movements and swagger or walk.

Online this is almost impossible. Well, we do have photos but you can't see the movements, the shading of the person, the eyes into who they really are other than the thoughts or posts they provide. The thoughts of others are very important but it generally doesn't tell you if they are *what you are looking for* by reading "What made you smile today" thread.

I'm betting on the fact that the majority of us aren't that shallow as to try and mold people into a group that has been discussed a million times and one in which i'm pretty sure we will never all agree totally to each definition of the IDs. I'm also betting on the fact that without these IDs as noted on many profiles we could talk it up and then meet and find out it is not as we perceived things (not to say that doesn't happen...but it would certainly happen more IMO).

Maybe i'm looking at this too elementary, too simply...but to me the IDs are just a tool to help us *see* each other. Maybe we aren't trying to disect ourselves or others with the labeling but just an honest way to "see" who we are having a drink with, a talk with, a connection with. I honestly don't know of too many people on here that say i'm this or that and doesn't appreciate how someone else IDs as well.

On here saying you are androgynous may make many turn away or turn toward, but in real time, i don't think the way someone IDs is that important. You are either attracted or you aren't.

Maybe the attention we give to IDs is just because we aren't sitting in a room with drinks of ...water. IMO online it is often hard to recognize or conceed to our attrations if we don't fully understand how the other person.....swaggers or walks.

[Quintease]

I love androgyny!

The first time I saw my bf put on a pink shirt I knew we would be all. right. He's a beautiful boy and his disregard for gendered colours makes me love him all the more.

My ex gf, my last serious relationship, was much the same. Everyone thought she was butch.. until the first time they saw her partying in lipstick and girly outfits. She never dressed for any one else.

[Martina]

i don't think of androgyny when i think of combinations of masculine and feminine energy. To me, androgyny is an attempt to not be recognized as either. It's like you have to achieve a balance or you have failed. And historically, i think it was an attempt to get out from under sexist notions of femininity without reconstructing them. In some ways, it's a fantasy of not having to deal with difference.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

i don't think of androgyny when i think of combinations of masculine and feminine energy. To me, androgyny is an attempt to not be recognized as either. It's like you have to achieve a balance or you have failed. And historically, i think it was an attempt to get out from under sexist notions of femininity without reconstructing them. In some ways, it's a fantasy of not having to deal with difference.

This is exactly how I perceive it.

[Sachita]

when I was much younger I dated ultra femme women or what I called "sporty" at the time. I didn't know much about butch-femme but I knew I was sexually attracted to a certain look. I discovered androgyny. Especially younger, submissive men and women, really I didn't see a gender per se. In fact looking back the serious relationships I was in were with what I call 3rd sex. I know we've had lots of discussion about this but I define it as a type of androgyny. Not only in looks but in action/movement. I admit that I find this highly sexual. (evil grin)

I'm into any type of gender bending, the more extreme the better.

[MarineCorps1]

I'll second that - gender bending is hot. I would describe myself as androgynous, certainly - I get "sir'ed" frequently when I'm not trying, sometimes I get "ma'am'ed" when I think I look the most butch.

I get mistaken for a guy sometimes even when I'm making no attempt to hide my breasts. I walk like a man, even in a dress- I just can't hide it. And kids peg me most often - usually as the opposite of my bio gender. I think their minds are more open to accepting what's in front of them than adults who've been trained that everything has a neat little place where it's supposed to fit.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by MarineCorps1

And kids peg me most often - usually as the opposite of my bio gender. I think their minds are more open to accepting what's in front of them than adults who've been trained that everything has a neat little place where it's supposed to fit.

I love kids. They don't know to be embarrassed or ashamed for wondering about gender or asking questions. Know = how society tells us we should feel/think.

It doesn't happen extremely often (I think somewhat because I am not around young kids often), but I love the, "Are you a boy or a girl", question!

[Nerdboi]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I love kids. They don't know to be embarrassed or ashamed for wondering about gender or asking questions. Know = how society tells us we should feel/think.

It doesn't happen extremely often (I think somewhat because I am not around young kids often), but I love the, "Are you a boy or a girl", question!

When I was younger I babysat these kids and they saw my bedroom and told me, "your bedroom looks like a girls or boys room". Love it

Being androgynous is who I am and its effin awesome!

[Toph]

The greatest thing about kids is that gender is a non issue!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by June

I was thinking about what androgyny means to me -- When I hear the word, I think of someone who is more comfortable using that term than Butch, Femme or even "Soft Butch" or "Femmy". I know we use it derisively a lot as in "Oh, yeah, she was kind of cute, but too adro for me".

Which is pretty dismissive and judgemental as well as binary reflective.

I think it might get misused as well, for instance, someone describing a long haired, self ID'd Butch as "Andro" just because their visual presentation is different than the "norm". The same could happen with a short haired self ID'd Femme, too.

Maybe we need a "Hair" re-make? Speaking of the play- and how it reflected what was going on in that era. What would it look like now?

So strange- I think that andro can be used as you state- many don't want to use butch or femme. Although, I use butch, I feel androgynous as it has been understood for a long time- and it isn't gender neutral- it is about merging and interweaving. It also has significance in Native cultures and things like Two Spirit. Obviously, androgyny is significant to those identifying as 3rd Gendered or to Transpeople as well as Butches or Femmes.

[Luckydwg07]

enjoying the topic ...Good stuff!

[AtLast]

What would we do without poetic license?

Think about terms/concepts that have been re-claimed as well as powerized and bring groups that once were put down by them new strength and promise.

Acknowledging history does not mean remaining in the past- especially when it comes to gender.

[AlexHunter]

If I could hit the "thanks" button a million times to the original poster, I would. Thanks, Toph.

Unfortunately, it seems this user has not logged in since 2010.

Anyway, anyhow...

I use the term "androgynous" to describe myself for the same reasons. I am physically androgynous, without a doubt. I would imagine butches who bind, pack, wear men's clothes, and have short, typically male haircuts are usually androgynous in appearance. Some are androgynous even without the binding or packing, because society takes cues from wardrobe, haircut, and mannerisms. While those things all cause one to present as masculine, the female body remains underneath - biologically female hands, neck, face, arms, et cetera - and this contradiction of nature causes a person to look and think twice about what someone has below the belt.

Hell, in Stone Butch Blues, Jess (the narrator) ends up going by the term "he-she." I modernized it to "dude chick," but it's the same idea. I do feel being "not quite a man and not quite a woman" places one in the androgynous category, if it is a term said person feels like claiming.

I say genderqueer is my mental presentation. Androgyny is my physical presentation. Butch is my attitude.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by AlexHunter

If I could hit the "thanks" button a million times to the original poster, I would. Thanks, Toph.

Unfortunately, it seems this user has not logged in since 2010.

Anyway, anyhow...

I use the term "androgynous" to describe myself for the same reasons. I am physically androgynous, without a doubt. I would imagine butches who bind, pack, wear men's clothes, and have short, typically male haircuts are usually androgynous in appearance. Some are androgynous even without the binding or packing, because society takes cues from wardrobe, haircut, and mannerisms. While those things all cause one to present as masculine, the female body remains underneath - biologically female hands, neck, face, arms, et cetera - and this contradiction of nature causes a person to look and think twice about what someone has below the belt.

Hell, in Stone Butch Blues, Jess (the narrator) ends up going by the term "he-she." I modernized it to "dude chick," but it's the same idea. I do feel being "not quite a man and not quite a woman" places one in the androgynous category, if it is a term said person feels like claiming.

I say genderqueer is my mental presentation. Androgyny is my physical presentation. Butch is my attitude.

Oh Alex, I like you more everyday. You remind me of Riley in soooooo many ways.

Riley is GF/androgynous. Everything about him appeals to me. Everything. He has more balance in his identity than most people I have ever met.

When I first saw him (we met b/c of a mutual friend) I could not tell-guy/girl. Having to look & think twice is so freakin' hot to me! It drives me crazy in such a good way-especially when the answer is what I prefer myself

[robbrt]

Originally Posted by AlexHunter

If I could hit the "thanks" button a million times to the original poster, I would. Thanks, Toph.

Unfortunately, it seems this user has not logged in since 2010.

Anyway, anyhow...

I use the term "androgynous" to describe myself for the same reasons. I am physically androgynous, without a doubt. I would imagine butches who bind, pack, wear men's clothes, and have short, typically male haircuts are usually androgynous in appearance. Some are androgynous even without the binding or packing, because society takes cues from wardrobe, haircut, and mannerisms. While those things all cause one to present as masculine, the female body remains underneath - biologically female hands, neck, face, arms, et cetera - and this contradiction of nature causes a person to look and think twice about what someone has below the belt.

Hell, in Stone Butch Blues, Jess (the narrator) ends up going by the term "he-she." I modernized it to "dude chick," but it's the same idea. I do feel being "not quite a man and not quite a woman" places one in the androgynous category, if it is a term said person feels like claiming.

I say genderqueer is my mental presentation. Androgyny is my physical presentation. Butch is my attitude.

Your last sentence hits the nail on the head for me and what I feel about myself.

[Jett]

You know what is funny, really seriously funny? Since I've grown my hair longer and wear eyeliner what-not (compared to my bare faced buzzed head I did forever) more people tend to think I'm an androgynous pretty guy then ever thought I was a dude when I was mega "butched up"... lol.

Granted I dress very dude-ish... and it depends on the day and how my clothes fall on my body... but yeah, they do. Funny too, my old confusion is now theirs and I'm not at all confused anymore... I found my balance.


Jett

[Toph]

Alex;
you are right, i have had a long hiatus. fact is i was quite ill but am back for more now.

i really appreciate your million times thank you!

i did not mean to leave this thread unattended for so long but it happened and today, filled with rain and gray skies, i found myself reading all the posts and responses a few times over.

it is comforting to know that even some of the most butchly butchies and femmes of all maintenance groups agree and have voiced their opinion/s.

that being said, i would like to share a recent experience

i went for a coffee not long ago i sat outside just staring at the day. a good looking older gentleman approached me and we started talking. it was 30 minutes into our conversation that he realized i am not a bio-male. he thought i was a young man. When he apologized with chuckles he said "Holy shit you look just like a guy" i replied with "Holy shit you sound just like a girl" we laughed and talked and have met for coffee 3 times since.

i have facial hair, a gauté, i have had it since i was about 11. my mother, devoutly Italian, would put hot wax (melted on the stove) on my face and tear away my hair. it was painful and it always resulted in cystic acne. i understood why she did it, i was relentlessly teased and made fun of for either my hair or the result of its disappearance. fact is though, i never cared about my facial hair or my genderfucked appearance, still don't. i am as i like to say, the best of both worlds, love me or leave me.

through recent testing, it has been discovered that i have male pattern hair growth, an extra rib (or a missing rib) also known as Adams Rib, that i have higher than normal testosterone levels, which explains why i have had about 13 periods in all my 47 years. but does this explain my androgyny?

when i shave my gauté i look like i am either a young dude or a superiorly butch chick, but my mannerisms never change. i embrace my female i embrace my male and i embrace my ability to confuse the tunnel visioned world with their ideas and idealism of what either gender should encompass.

but what i do not embrace, is the painfully inaccurate definitions that our own community (whether online or in real time) have now decided belong in our 'glossary of gay terms'. it is a simple case of opening a dictionary.

we are what we are nothing can change that, not chemicals or operations, we still live in our minds where no one can violate or control us, where no one can enter or even understand our mental processes.

i agree with so many of you that it is so much of our own attitudes, our own acceptances and how we live day to day that defines who/what we are.