OSAMA BINLADEN IS DEAD

[Mitmo01]

If any other country on the face of the earth went through 9/11 like the United States has, they would have hunted him down as well.....he got what he chose....and his death in his mansion was his choosing....unlike the victims of his operations.....he deserved what he got...in my opinion...

[Gayla]

My time in front of an actual computer is so limited these days that I find myself having to cram a whole day's worth of news reading and posting into just a few hours in the middle of the night. So please just pretend that I'm posting these throughout the day like I used to!

As I flip through the photos on the news sites and see the images of the celebrations in NYC and in front of the White House I find myself thinking about similar images that I've seen on the news most all of my life. In the past, these have always been of people in other countries, usually, celebrating the downfall, or death, of some "bad" leader or regime. But, I also remember crowds cheering around burning US flags and celebrating when US embassies have been attacked.

I can't help but draw comparisons to those images and the pictures from last night's celebrations and wonder if people around the world are reacting to those images the same way we've reacted in the past. It's striking a couple of different chords within me and making me question some of my own thoughts and feelings around my "why's" of it.

Over the last month, often more than a few times a day, I've had the opportunity to, literally, come face to face with some of my own internal prejudices in ways that I've never had to before. While that's totally a topic for a different thread, I can't ignore the similarities and the interconnectedness of it for me right now, even more so in the events of this last 24 hours.

I've got some "us" vs "them" things going on that make me uncomfortable. Does this mean we are now no "better than them". Have we become just like "those people". I don't like that I'm even thinking in those types of terms but I can admit right now I am and that I'm also aware that's probably at the base of my overall uncomfortableness with the celebrations. As someone else mentioned, I'd like to think that we are "better than that" but even that thought makes me cringe a little inside.

Honestly, I'm surprised at how complex my thoughts and reactions are around all of this.

[morningstar55]

i dont know about anyone else.........
.......... but

all this news everywhere i turn too, on line , news paper, tv, radio...... people all rejoicing in Osama dead....

makes me think of this.........

[girl_dee]

Forgive me for not being up to speed on the details, I don't watch tv and have stayed away from the media hype, but were the other people killed in the raid buried at sea as well? Have they disclosed this? I couldn't find any info on this.

[Gráinne]

While I suppose I'm glad that justice was served, I still see no difference in the celebrations over his death and the ones in the Middle East over 9/11. Both make me feel very uncomfortable.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Killing One Monster, Unleashing Another: Reflections on Revenge and Revelry


Tim Wise


May 2, 2011, 8:15 pm

There is a particularly trenchant scene in the documentary film, Robert Blecker Wants Me Dead, in which Blecker - who teaches at New York University School of Law and is the nation's most prominent pro-death penalty scholar - travels to Tennessee's Riverbend Prison for the execution of convicted murderer, Daryl Holton. Blecker is adamant that Holton, who murdered his own children, deserves to die for his crime. Yet, when he gets to the prison on the evening of Holton's electrocution, Blecker is disturbed not only by the anti-death penalty forces whom he views as dangerously naive, but also by those who have come to literally cheer the state-sponsored killing. He agrees with their ultimate position, but can't understand why they feel the need to celebrate death, to party as a life is taken. The event is somber, he tries to tell them. Human life is precious, he insists; so precious, in Blecker's mind, that occasionally we must take the lives of killers so as to reinforce that respect for human life. But there is no reason to revel in the death of another, he tries to explain. While I disagree with Blecker on the matter of the death penalty, I felt sympathy for him in that moment, trying to thread the needle between advocacy of killing - any killing - and the retention of the nuance that allows the supporter of such a thing to still preach about the sanctity of life. It was a nice attempt, and heartfelt.
Of course, his pleas for solemnity fall on deaf ears. His ideological compatriots cannot comprehend him. They even misunderstand his position on the ultimate issue, presuming at first that his unwillingness to cheer the death of one as evil as Holton means he must oppose the death penalty, and that he doesn't care about the children Holton killed. Ultimately, Blecker walks away, clearly shaken, not in his support for capital punishment, but by the way in which others on his own side seem to literally glorify death, even need it.
I was reminded of this scene today, while watching coverage of the celebrations around the country (but especially in Washington D.C. and Manhattan), which began last night when it was announced that Osama bin Laden was dead. In front of the White House were thousands of affluent and overprivileged (and mostly white) college students from George Washington University (among the nation's most expensive schools), partying like it was spring break. Never needing an excuse to binge drink, the GW and Georgetown co-eds responded to the news of bin Laden's death as though their team had just won the Final Four. That none of them would have had the guts to actually go and fight the war that they seem to support so vociferously - after all, a stint in the military might disrupt their plans to work on Wall Street, or to become high-powered lawyers, or just get in the way of their spring formal - matters not, one supposes. They have other people to do the hard work for them. They always have.
In New York, the throngs assembled may have been more economically diverse, but the revelry was similar. Lots of flags, chants of "U.S.A., U.S.A.," and an overall "rah-rah" attitude akin to that which one might experience at a BCS Bowl game, and once again, mostly led by guys who would never, themselves, have gone to war, to get bin Laden or anyone else.
You have to wonder - or actually, you don't because the answer is so distressingly obvious - would these throngs pour into the streets to celebrate in this fashion if it were announced that a cure for cancer had been discovered, or for AIDS? Would thousands of people be jumping up and down belting out patriotic chants if the president were to announce that our country's scientists had found a new, affordable method for wiping out all childhood disease, malnutrition or malaria in poor countries around the world? Though these maladies kill far more than Osama bin Laden ever dreamt of slaughtering, and although any of these developments would be a source of intense pride for millions, there is almost no chance that they would be met with drunken revelry. Partying is what we do when we kill people, when we beat someone, when we grind them to dust. It is not what we do when we save lives or end suffering. Saving lives or doing humanitarianism is like making love, while killing people is tantamount to a good, hard, and largely one-sided fuck; and unfortunately we know which of these two things men, in particular, are more apt to prefer.
Don't get me wrong: I am not a pacifist. I know there are times when violence may be necessary, either in self-defense, vicarious defense of others, or to prevent greater violence. If you were to break into my house and attempt to harm my family, let there be no misunderstanding: you would die, and I would kill you, without so much as a moment's hesitation. But I would not, upon having taken your life (however justified), proceed to pop a cold one, invite friends over and dance around your bloody body. I would not be happy about what I had done. Taking a life, even when you have no choice, is no cause for joy. It is a grave and serious event; and it is utterly unnatural, such that militaries the world over have to dehumanize their enemies and work furiously to break down their soldiers' natural human tendencies to not kill. The fact that violence may be necessary in certain cases, and even in the case of stopping bin Laden, cannot, in and of itself justify raucous celebrations of his death at the hands of the United States.
So yes, we can argue that bin Laden deserved to die. But that's the easy part. Beyond what one deserves, whether they be terrorists or just street criminals, there is the matter of what society needs. And it may be that what a healthy society needs is less bombastic rhetoric, less celebratory embrace of violence, and less jingoistic nationalism, even if that means that we have to respond to the news of bin Laden's death with a more muted tone, perhaps being thankful in private, or even drinking a toast with friends in our own homes, but not turning the matter into public spectacle, the likes of which cheapens matters of life and death to little more than a contest whose results can be tallied on a scoreboard.
It may prove cathartic that one the likes of bin Laden is dead. His death may provide an opportunity for a much-needed exhaling; but that doesn't render it the proper subject of a pep rally. And given the larger need to challenge the mentality of disposability that is at the root of all murderous violence, it may be that in such moments we would be far better off to solemnly commemorate the death of the monster than to cheer it openly, when the latter is so likely to inflame passions on the part of those whose allegiance to the monster remained unsullied right to the end.
Ultimately, the mentality of human disposability that animates war, terrorism, gang violence and all forms of homicidal street crime, is a dangerous one to indulge, and certainly to indulge giddily. Such a mindset feeds upon itself, perpetuates itself without end, and serves to ratify the same in others. Surely we should strive to do better, even when, for various reasons, we can't manage it, and are required to take life for one reason or another. Most soldiers, after all, are not happy or self-satisfied about the things they've done in war. For many, if not most, killing even when you have no choice, is life-changing. It scars. It comes back in the middle of the night, haunting the soldier's dreams for years, and sometimes forever. We do not honor them or their sacrifices by treating the mortal decisions they so often have to make as if they were no more gut-wrenching than those made during the playing of a video game.
Perhaps the only thing more disturbing than the celebrations unleashed in the wake of bin Laden's demise was the cynical way in which the president suggested that his killing proved "America can do whatever we set our mind to." If this is, indeed, the lesson of bin Laden's death, then this only suggests we clearly don't want to diminish, let alone end, child poverty, excess mortality rates in communities of color, rape and sexual assault of women (including the many thousands who have been victimized in the U.S. military), or food insecurity for millions of families; because we aren't addressing any of those things with nearly the aplomb as that put to warfare and the killing of our adversaries.
We are, if the president is serious here, a nation that has narrowly constricted its marketable talents to the deployment of violence. We can't manufacture much of anything, but we can kill you. We can't fix our schools, or build adequate levees to protect a city like New Orleans from floodwaters. But we can kill you. We can't reduce infant mortality to anywhere near the level of other industrialized nations with which we like to compare ourselves. But we can kill you. We can't break the power of Wall Street bankers, or jail any of those bankers and money managers who helped orchestrate the global financial collapse. But we can kill you. We can't protect LGBT youth from bullying in schools, or ensure equal opportunity for all in the labor market, regardless of race, gender, sexuality or any other factor. But we can kill you. Booyah, bitches.
But somewhere, I suspect, there is a young child - maybe the age of one of my own - who is sitting in front of a television tonight in Karachi, or Riyadh. And he's watching footage of some fraternity boy, American flag wrapped around his back, cheering the death of one who this child believes, for whatever fucked up reason, is a hero, and now, a martyr.
And I know that this child will likely do what all such children do; namely, forget almost nothing, remember almost everything, and plan for the day when he will make you remember it too, and when you will know his name. And if (or when) that day comes, the question will be, was your party worth it?

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Novelafemme

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."-Martin Luther King, Jr.

I'm not sure if this has already been said, but late last night I found out this quote was misattributed to Martin Luther King Jr. I wanted to set the record straight because I backed this quote up by providing part of an actual speech by him - and I never doubted that this quoted quote was made up.

**takes bite of humble pie**

http://mashable.com/2011/05/03/altered-mlk-quote/

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Nat

I'm not sure if this has already been said, but late last night I found out this quote was misattributed to Martin Luther King Jr. I wanted to set the record straight because I backed this quote up by providing part of an actual speech by him - and I never doubted that this quoted quote was made up.

**takes bite of humble pie**

http://mashable.com/2011/05/03/altered-mlk-quote/

My thoughts...

One important thing not being acknowledged in this discourse is how many people were reaching out to one of our greatest leaders in nonviolent social change as a way to make sense of their own response to this violent action. Sometimes solidarity in this way is important as is seeking out the words of great leaders we respect as means to make sense of reactions we might not yet have vocabulary for. I also think the misattribution of that one sentence is being blown out of proportion instead of focusing on how many and how much people wanted to communicate the sentiment embedded in that quote.

[Linus]

Just for interesting sake: http://www.boingboing.net/2011/05/02...a-bin-lad.html

Apparently there are quite a few who do not know who Osama Bin Laden is and why his death is so important. Maybe I should stick this in the thread since that what it made me do.

[Starbuck]

I don't watch much tv and that I do watch is usually from the DVR so I can rush through commercials. I listen to mostly CDs and therefore do not get radio news either...guess I'm kinda protected from, or ignorant of (if you will), all the negativity shown in the media and on tv in general. I'm just sick to death of hearing about it.

I still haven't seen anything on the tv about Osama's death, don't really care to either. But that doesn't change the fact that I am glad that the hunt for his sorry ass is over! Notice I did not say I was glad he was dead, I said I am glad the hunt for him is over...BIG difference! I do hope that this will help draw down American troop involvement "over there" so our men and women can stop dying too young.

[Toughy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden_geronimo

Senate official: Wrong to link bin Laden, Geronimo

The top staffer for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee is objecting to the U.S. military's use of the code name "Geronimo" for Osama bin Laden during the raid that killed the al-Qaida leader.

Geronimo was an Apache leader in the 19th century who spent many years fighting the Mexican and U.S. armies until his surrender in 1886.

Loretta Tuell, staff director and chief counsel for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee, said Tuesday it was inappropriate to link Geronimo, whom she called "one of the greatest Native American heroes," with one of the most hated enemies of the United States."These inappropriate uses of Native American icons and cultures are prevalent throughout our society, and the impacts to Native and non-Native children are devastating," Tuell said.

Tuell is a member of the Nez Perce tribe and grew on the tribe's reservation in Idaho. The Senate Indian Affairs panel had previously scheduled a hearing for Thursday on racial stereotypes of native people. Tuell said the use of Geronimo in the bin Laden raid will be discussed.

Steven Newcomb, a columnist for the weekly newspaper Indian Country Today, criticized what he called a disrespectful use of a name revered by many Native Americans.

"Apparently, having an African-American president in the White House is not enough to overturn the more than 200-year American tradition of treating and thinking of Indians as enemies of the United States," Newcomb wrote.

After bin Laden was killed, the military sent a message back to the White House: "Geronimo EKIA" — enemy killed in action. "It's another attempt to label Native Americans as terrorists," said Paula Antoine of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe in South Dakota.

A White House spokesman referred questions about the code name to the Pentagon. A Defense Department spokeswoman declined to comment.

Jefferson Keel, president of National Congress of American Indians, the largest organization representing American Indians and Alaska Natives, said, "Osama bin Laden was a shared enemy."

Keel said that since 2001, 77 American Indians and Alaskan Natives have died defending the U.S. in Afghanistan and Iraq. More than 400 have been wounded.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Toughy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden_geronimo

Senate official: Wrong to link bin Laden, Geronimo

The top staffer for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee is objecting to the U.S. military's use of the code name "Geronimo" for Osama bin Laden during the raid that killed the al-Qaida leader.

Geronimo was an Apache leader in the 19th century who spent many years fighting the Mexican and U.S. armies until his surrender in 1886.

Loretta Tuell, staff director and chief counsel for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee, said Tuesday it was inappropriate to link Geronimo, whom she called "one of the greatest Native American heroes," with one of the most hated enemies of the United States."These inappropriate uses of Native American icons and cultures are prevalent throughout our society, and the impacts to Native and non-Native children are devastating," Tuell said.

Tuell is a member of the Nez Perce tribe and grew on the tribe's reservation in Idaho. The Senate Indian Affairs panel had previously scheduled a hearing for Thursday on racial stereotypes of native people. Tuell said the use of Geronimo in the bin Laden raid will be discussed.

Steven Newcomb, a columnist for the weekly newspaper Indian Country Today, criticized what he called a disrespectful use of a name revered by many Native Americans.

"Apparently, having an African-American president in the White House is not enough to overturn the more than 200-year American tradition of treating and thinking of Indians as enemies of the United States," Newcomb wrote.

After bin Laden was killed, the military sent a message back to the White House: "Geronimo EKIA" — enemy killed in action. "It's another attempt to label Native Americans as terrorists," said Paula Antoine of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe in South Dakota.

A White House spokesman referred questions about the code name to the Pentagon. A Defense Department spokeswoman declined to comment.

Jefferson Keel, president of National Congress of American Indians, the largest organization representing American Indians and Alaska Natives, said, "Osama bin Laden was a shared enemy."

Keel said that since 2001, 77 American Indians and Alaskan Natives have died defending the U.S. in Afghanistan and Iraq. More than 400 have been wounded.

Thanks for this post, Toughy. this really does need to be discussed. When I first saw some coverage about this and Geronimo being used, I thought WTF? So, Native Americans must be very upset. I hope this starts to get more press.

On another note (not directed to this post, but to discussions about Muslim burial)- I'm feeling like there is a clear distinction being made (that I didn't not get at all at first) about his body preparation and burial at sea.

His body was treated with regard for Muslim burial preparation, but there is really not a claim that a sea burial is accepted as proper to Muslims (other than some claims that if that is where the body is within the time appropriate time frame) that our actual putting him out to sea is keeping with Muslim traditions. In fact, the sea burial was a very conscious decision so that his followers had no place to martyr him or make into a shrine for him.

So, my present understanding is that the body preparation was done according to Muslim traditions, but not the sea burial and the US is not claiming that it was. Which brings up a whole other set of criticisms. I am not agreeing with this action- I am exploring why it.

This certainly doesn't let us off the hook to criticism for not honoring these traditions, however. And this can certainly have some negative consequences for the US. I hope there will be more information given about this that includes Muslim experts.

[Mister Bent]

"They say that revenge is a dish that's best served cold. We've been waiting a long time for this particular dish to cool, and now that I've eaten it, I'm surprised to find that it's pretty tasteless and unsatisfying."

This article succinctly sums it up for me; acknowledging that bin Laden's death was, effectively, mere retaliation. We gain nothing. We are not safer, no troops are coming home, the waste that was the war in Iraq (where were the weapons of mass destruction? Did we end or even deter terrorism as a result?) can't be erased.

Ten years later, I feel none of the righteous joy that I expected. It mostly just fills me with grief for all the deaths between then and now that should never have happened. I'm glad we've taken a terrorist out of circulation, of course. But maybe because I'm older, and mortality seems all too depressingly real, I find it hard to celebrate anyone's death--no, not even Bin Laden's. The families of the victims deserved some satisfaction, of course, and a certainly hope they got it. But these days, all of humanity seems so fragile to me, the universes of our minds so easily destroyed. No matter how much Team Death deserves to win, I find it hard to cheer when the Grim Reaper does his victory dance in the end zone.

Don't get me wrong: I do not think killing Bin Laden was morally or even tactically wrong. I just think it's profoundly unsatisfying. We won't recover any of the things that he took from us, or even the things we took from ourselves, like the ability to travel around the country without being treated like a potential terrorist. Destroying Osama did not unmake him, which is what I really wanted. He may be dead, but we're still living with him.

(Emphasis mine.)

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

"They say that revenge is a dish that's best served cold. We've been waiting a long time for this particular dish to cool, and now that I've eaten it, I'm surprised to find that it's pretty tasteless and unsatisfying."

This article succinctly sums it up for me; acknowledging that bin Laden's death was, effectively, mere retaliation. We gain nothing. We are not safer, no troops are coming home, the waste that was the war in Iraq (where were the weapons of mass destruction? Did we end or even deter terrorism as a result?) can't be erased.

Ten years later, I feel none of the righteous joy that I expected. It mostly just fills me with grief for all the deaths between then and now that should never have happened. I'm glad we've taken a terrorist out of circulation, of course. But maybe because I'm older, and mortality seems all too depressingly real, I find it hard to celebrate anyone's death--no, not even Bin Laden's. The families of the victims deserved some satisfaction, of course, and a certainly hope they got it. But these days, all of humanity seems so fragile to me, the universes of our minds so easily destroyed. No matter how much Team Death deserves to win, I find it hard to cheer when the Grim Reaper does his victory dance in the end zone.

Don't get me wrong: I do not think killing Bin Laden was morally or even tactically wrong. I just think it's profoundly unsatisfying. We won't recover any of the things that he took from us, or even the things we took from ourselves, like the ability to travel around the country without being treated like a potential terrorist. Destroying Osama did not unmake him, which is what I really wanted. He may be dead, but we're still living with him.

(Emphasis mine.)

Thanks for posting this. And now there will be all the analysis about Obama deciding not to publish the death photos. Get ready for the deluge!

[Ebon]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know when and how did they get the original DNA sample to match it against the DNA's of dead Osama?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Ebon

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know when and how did they get the original DNA sample to match it against the DNA's of dead Osama?

His family has given samples.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

"They say that revenge is a dish that's best served cold. We've been waiting a long time for this particular dish to cool, and now that I've eaten it, I'm surprised to find that it's pretty tasteless and unsatisfying."

This article succinctly sums it up for me; acknowledging that bin Laden's death was, effectively, mere retaliation. We gain nothing. We are not safer, no troops are coming home, the waste that was the war in Iraq (where were the weapons of mass destruction? Did we end or even deter terrorism as a result?) can't be erased.

Ten years later, I feel none of the righteous joy that I expected. It mostly just fills me with grief for all the deaths between then and now that should never have happened. I'm glad we've taken a terrorist out of circulation, of course. But maybe because I'm older, and mortality seems all too depressingly real, I find it hard to celebrate anyone's death--no, not even Bin Laden's. The families of the victims deserved some satisfaction, of course, and a certainly hope they got it. But these days, all of humanity seems so fragile to me, the universes of our minds so easily destroyed. No matter how much Team Death deserves to win, I find it hard to cheer when the Grim Reaper does his victory dance in the end zone.

Don't get me wrong: I do not think killing Bin Laden was morally or even tactically wrong. I just think it's profoundly unsatisfying. We won't recover any of the things that he took from us, or even the things we took from ourselves, like the ability to travel around the country without being treated like a potential terrorist. Destroying Osama did not unmake him, which is what I really wanted. He may be dead, but we're still living with him.

(Emphasis mine.)

My feelings exactly, including the emphases. Thanks.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Ebon

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know when and how did they get the original DNA sample to match it against the DNA's of dead Osama?

One report pointed to family members. We have had a relationship with the royal family of Saudi Arabia for a long time. I think he is 17th out od 112 siblings! Lots of DNA out there to use- his family banished him long ago. There are probably fingerprints available too. Possibly blood samples via medical records via the family.

I hope the science and technology behind the facial progression recognition computer imaging is eventually released or a documentary done on it.

There could actually be his DNA preserved somewhere and has been profiled and preserved quite awhile ago. In his early terrorist days, he did partake in the actual events. Our CIA and even the FBI could have had access to this data through other countries including Saudi Arabia (he killed many in his own country). This would be right around the time there was thinking about preserving DNA but before the level of testing we have today.

I bet all of this will eventually be presented. Here is a link about the family DNA samples-

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wash...milys-dna.html

This one is about forensic facial recognition softeware-

All identification techniques can have problems- so it appears there are several being used. The initial DNA results could have been within a few hours, but these would not be of the quality (accuracy) as the tests that take much longer. Oh, and good old dental records are in the mix!
http://www.thetruthaboutforensicscie...ama-bin-laden/

[Miss Scarlett]

With regard to DNA testing...i imagine he has children...it's as simple as testing the paternal bloodline. Unless he has an identical twin who could have fathered the child(ren).

[AtLast]

Info on Bin Laden- Bin Laden's history (pre-9/11), especially how very affluent he was. This was not a poor, uneducated, common Saudi man. He was part of the Saudi royal family. The guy did not grow up in caves! In fact, he took on the persona of the common Saudi to gain rapport with those he could train to carry out terror. He was very cunning sociopath- not a pious religious man.

He has been hunted by many countries worldwide for many years. His DNA as well as a whole host of other things from medical and dental records have been kept by intelligence agencies around the world.

This is one article that at least gives a glimpse into his history before the many attacks wordwide he had a part in.

So many folks seem to have very little knowledge about his history and only focus on 9/11. I have talked with people in real time many times that believe he was some kind of hero of the common people brought up with nothing. He received an education in elite schools and had access to billions of dollars.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-al-Qaeda.html