Did the Pakistan government know Osama bin Laden was there?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by June

Violaine, this thread is not in the Red Zone. You can say you're not a racist, that's fine. But if you live as and are seen as a white person, then you probably need to check your own privilege.

June (Moderator voice)

Maybe I should have put it in the Red Zone- although, I thought only admin/mods could do that.

Saying this because the nature of the subject matter is obviously bringing up many controversies. I honestly wanted to talk about what effect bin Laden's death (and the way it was done) in relation to Pakistan and the US's relationship.

I don't know what the decision process is for moving a thread to the Red Zone, but request that that be considered.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

<snip>

Saying this because the nature of the subject matter is obviously bringing up many controversies. I honestly wanted to talk about what effect bin Laden's death (and the way it was done) in relation to Pakistan and the US's relationship.

<snip>

But this is not the question you asked. You asked:

'Did the Pakistan [sic] government know Osama bin Laden was there?'

Is it possible that you can not see the difference?

[Martina]

i agree that we have few POC here and had few at the other site. There is a reason they leave. It's not THIS site's or even the other's fault although they were way lax and late about addressing the racism issue. It's a social issue. It's something we have to work at to change because if we don't, there is too much racism for most POC to tolerate.

That said, i think using a pejorative in quotes is OK if you are discussing the word and its use, not using it to offend. If it offends, it is OK to scale it back to a usage such as the n-word. But using the words in quotes is not a racist act. That it can still hurt is clear. And if that is the case, and someone tells you to stop, then by all means stop.

The same with the word "Black." i use African American at least 90 percent of the time. i hear myself use "Black" sometimes, sometimes in the context of asking someone's race. My students, who are African American and Latino, use it regularly and not as a pejorative. i just read a lovely poem by a student about her black pride. She was riffing off of a Tupac poem.

As always we should address and refer to people as they choose. i do not think modding someone for culturally accepted practices makes a lot of sense though.

[violaine]

i do not have a personal issue whenever critically thinking/sharing on a subject. i really like this [and other thought-provoking] conversations as well, and would also like for them to respectfully continue. my participation in a thread- i.e., typing out words or thanking, does not mean i have personal agenda if i do or do not not agree with someone either. if i type that is not where i'm coming from, isn't that as important as anyone else wanting to be heard on anti-racism?

i like opening up for clarification and moving on- fostering more positive relationships.

i do not know a lot about pakistan save in words, as i've never visited the country. openly discussing political issues differs greatly in other regions of the world so much from our freedom/ culture here.

[BullDog]

Racism needs to be discussed where it occurs, not moved to another thread- although other aspects of language usage and terminology could make for an additional useful discussion.

Unfortunately racism has played a role in what has occurred as well as this discussion.

I am extremely angry that a President of the United States feels compelled to trot out his birth certificate to prove that he is a U.S. citizen. The constant message is if you aren't white your U.S. citizenry is suspect.

I also feel that President Obama is not getting the respect or credit he deserves for succeeding in the mission to get Bin Laden.

It also boggles my mind that they would use a Native American name as a code word for Bin Laden. How could members of the National Security Council- including President Obama- not know how inappropriate, hurtful and disrespectful this is?

Different POC individuals want to be referred to differently. We have different pronoun preferences, gender ids, etc. So why would that be surprising.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Chancie

But this is not the question you asked. You asked:

'Did the Pakistan [sic] government know Osama bin Laden was there?'

Is it possible that you can not see the difference?

Here is my OP statement (#1)-

A poll and place to discuss the role, if any of Pakistan's government or military having knowledge that bin Laden was living under their noses.

For a discussion of what this might mean for the future US relationship between the US and Pakistan if it turns out that Pakistan was harboring him.

What should, if anything the US do about the billions of dollars per year we give Pakistan?

Is this relationship helpful in building better relations with Islam at all and this part of the world? Or, is the US using Pakistan in some ways? Or, are we engaged with Pakistan because it has nuclear weapons and a negative relationship with India?

And any other points people want to bring up! It is a complex situation and grows even more complex with the US killing of bin Laden in Pakistan in a manner that some believe to be wrong- entering a sovereign nation to kill someone without permission to do so.