"straight" women and Butches.

[Merlin]

^ thank you I appreciate that.

[Medusa]

Hey Merlin -

It's not really that the forums are all that "cliquey" but I do think people on these boards are super protective of the Queer space and are pretty watchful for the glorification of dating straight women. (not saying you are doing that)
In years past, many Femmes (and Butches too!) have felt erased and devalued when folks talk about dating straight women as if it is the apex of all things hot. Especially in a space where Femmes want to be seen and appreciated (because let's face it, we're mostly invisible out in the world)

I do think there are cultural differences, especially in a microcasm such as this site where many folks have been having these discussions for years. Either way, I'm interested in what you have to say!

Medusa

[JustJo]

Hi Merlin, and welcome to the site

I think it's a question of defining "straight"...

Would a truly, 100% straight woman be interested in having a relationship with a butch? I think not.

It might be a matter of where you found her on her own personal growth curve. Most people (including myself) would have called me straight until I was in my 40s. For a variety of reasons, including some I wasn't even aware of myself for a long time, I pushed down my own sexuality and went along with what I was "supposed" to do and want.

It took me a long time to come out, even to myself.

Maybe that's true for them too...

[TickledPink]

I cringe when I hear the word "straight woman" only because I'm sick of everyone assuming I am. I've heard it over, and over, "but you look straight." WTF does straight look like????

As far as butches with straight women, femmes with straight women, straight women with straight women, whatever floats your ducky!

Welcome to BFP!

[Merlin]

Here the bf community isn't as good as there,it's a really small community. Alot of it has been aided through the net. Due to the distance between cities bf folk live things are very fractured.

I've tried to date mainstream lesbians but they shun me. I guess my look and any whiff of testosterone puts them off.

[Merlin]

For the record am fed up of being a joke to the mainstream lesbian community,it's amazing what homophobia is rife in the gay community xx

[Jesse]

Hi Merlin,

I believe I saw someone else make this same suggestion to you that I am making now. Often times, it is best to check out the forum, read the various threads, and get a feel for the general terminology used, mentality, personalities etc. on the forum.

I've witnessed a few come charging in on forums before starting thread after thread without realizing that they may be speaking in ways that are offensive to the group at large and then they get their feelings hurt and are embarrassed because the group takes them to task. Slow down, give everyone an opportunity to get to know you, and you us.

[Merlin]

Noted.

Like I said ice breaker.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Merlin

Here the bf community isn't as good as there,it's a really small community. Alot of it has been aided through the net. Due to the distance between cities bf folk live things are very fractured.

I've tried to date mainstream lesbians but they shun me. I guess my look and any whiff of testosterone puts them off.

I think the same or similar can be said for most places in the world. The bf community as well as other less visible communities in the LGBT spectrum have definitely benefited a lot from internet communication.

Since it came up at the end of this post as well, you might find that what many people (whether b/f or others within the spectrum who take interest in gender issues and how sexism and heteronormativity can be damaging) will take issue with the equation of masculinity with being male. For example, in your first post you ask whether "straight women" might like butches as having the "best of both worlds" with "male looks" and "female anatomy." I think that kind of equation of masculine = male is something some might react negatively to, and admit it got a bit of an eyeroll from me as well. A butch woman who sees masculinity as unique from male probably isn't going to consider her own masculinity a "male look." Same with others who might id as genderqueer, third gender or who generally consider sexuality and gender as fluid rather restricted to a specific set of binaries.

Like others have suggested, it might be best for you to do a bit of reading, not just on this forum but in general on gender issues within the queer spectrum. Not sure if you've read Judith Halberstam's Female Masculinity but a good briefer on the subject if you're interested.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Merlin

Here the bf community isn't as good as there,it's a really small community. Alot of it has been aided through the net. Due to the distance between cities bf folk live things are very fractured.

I've tried to date mainstream lesbians but they shun me. I guess my look and any whiff of testosterone puts them off.

The BF community is not that great here either, we find each other through the web here too.

Originally Posted by Merlin

For the record am fed up of being a joke to the mainstream lesbian community,it's amazing what homophobia is rife in the gay community xx

It really is sad I agree.

I do have to say I have been to London 7 or 8 times, and never seen a Butch on the street (and I look lol), which I do in my wayyyy smaller city here in the US. No, I have not been to the Lesbian bar, was not sure what the Femme reception would be like. It's gotten better here over the past few years, but one never knows.

Yes, it becomes tiresome to be looked at as a freak by mainstream Lesbians. My "straight" friends seem to understand way better than my Gay friends.

[Quintease]

I don't see the issue with us talking about straight people, I mean, they talk about us. Every young female star that matters is talking about going bi and its 'cool' now for straight men to snog. Talking about straight people is no.big.deal.

Statistically a homosexual woman is only 75% gay or more. This says to me that a straight woman can be 75% straight and still call herself a 100% straight woman, even if she's shagging dykes. I don't assume any straight woman who sleeps with a femme, boi or butch is secretly on the verge of coming out, sometimes they just want a bit of variety.

I was a straight girl once and slept with loads of boys, my first real 'lesbian' crush was with a bisexual girl who preferred boys. I ended up with a 60% lesbian and she ended up with a boy, yet I still wonder why straight women see lesbians as being under the radar.

As for the looking straight thing *sigh* What does that even mean?? I look straight to straight women, bisexual to straight men and bi/gay/queer/straight to lesbians and gay men. I figure people just see what they wanna see.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I don't see the issue with us talking about straight people, I mean, they talk about us. Every young female star that matters is talking about going bi and its 'cool' now for straight men to snog. Talking about straight people is no.big.deal.

Statistically a homosexual woman is only 75% gay or more. This says to me that a straight woman can be 75% straight and still call herself a 100% straight woman, even if she's shagging dykes. I don't assume any straight woman who sleeps with a femme, boi or butch is secretly on the verge of coming out, sometimes they just want a bit of variety.

I was a straight girl once and slept with loads of boys, my first real 'lesbian' crush was with a bisexual girl who preferred boys. I ended up with a 60% lesbian and she ended up with a boy, yet I still wonder why straight women see lesbians as being under the radar.

As for the looking straight thing *sigh* What does that even mean?? I look straight to straight women, bisexual to straight men and bi/gay/queer/straight to lesbians and gay men. I figure people just see what they wanna see.

I love the word "shag", makes me grin! ")

Some of us look like straight women and have been told so all our adult lives. I get told I look like I teach Sunday School. lol. No matter what I wear or do I look really feminine.

Now, I do get your point about how does gay or lesbian look! A lesbian must look like me, since I am one! lol But, its usually a shock to people and I have to tell them in weird awkward ways like "pass the salsa, I'm a Lesbian".

ps. no prob talking about straight people from me lol

[Toughy]

by Quintease <snip>
Statistically a homosexual woman is only 75% gay or more. This says to me that a straight woman can be 75% straight and still call herself a 100% straight woman, even if she's shagging dykes.
<snip>

Where did you come up with this 75% gay number? I need way more information.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Female Masculinity but a good briefer on the subject if you're interested.

Oh. I would add to read this with an open mind! S/he has some really debatable things to say about FTM's and femmes.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Quintease

Oh. I would add to read this with an open mind! S/he has some really debatable things to say about FTM's and femmes.

In a Queer Time and Place: Transgender Bodies and Subcultural Lives is a great read in addition to Female Masculinity. It clarifies her current thoughts on some of those issues. She writes an awesome analysis of Boys Don't Cry and other trans films.

Originally Posted by Merlin

Here the bf community isn't as good as there,it's a really small community. Alot of it has been aided through the net. Due to the distance between cities bf folk live things are very fractured.

I've tried to date mainstream lesbians but they shun me. I guess my look and any whiff of testosterone puts them off.

Where do you live mate? I think the bf community isn't as bad or as small as you're painting it here. I have loads of bf mates... ok so I don't see them all the time and keep in touch via the bf sites and facebook but they are there if you seek them out. I'm lucky I guess in that I live an hour or so away from one of the massive (Northern) cities (Manchester) where there's a bf and kink community to go play out with whenever I want.

Not sure why you're not finding bf folks, have you signed up to the UK bf sites - of which there are 3 to my knowledge.

apocalipstic - sometimes I feel my straight male mates understand where I'm coming from much better than my mainstream lezzer mates too.