"Becoming Chaz"

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Rockinonahigh

Its been a long time since I knew ,but how much is top surgery?I mean no disrespect to anyone by asking because I was told there was a doc hear that would do a sevire reduction I doubt its the same thing but the price is way less so ive herd.Tomorrow im caling his office to see about the price cause im curious.

I've seen a range of (US money) $5,000-$9,000.

[Rockinonahigh]

Originally Posted by Thinker

I've seen a range of (US money) $5,000-$9,000.

WOW..lotta $$ to b shure.

[Thinker]

Good read titled Trans Framing, or why Chaz Bono doesn't speak for me

The author also draws some comparisons to what Chaz's doc did for public opinion versus what the movie Boys Don't Cry did. Well written.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/0...t-speak-for-me

[citybutch]

Thank you so much for posting... !

Originally Posted by Thinker

Good read titled Trans Framing, or why Chaz Bono doesn't speak for me

The author also draws some comparisons to what Chaz's doc did for public opinion versus what the movie Boys Don't Cry did. Well written.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/0...t-speak-for-me

[BullDog]

I didn't watch the documentary, but I just watched a 4 minute clip from him being on Letterman, and to me it reinforced the stuff the author was talking about from the link Thinker provided.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31749_16...-10391698.html

Maybe he is going through a bravado phase. When Letterman asked him if his interactions with women were different he said, well I think I frustrate my girlfriend more. I can be an "A." I can be insensitive. I can be a guy.


WTF?

[Heart]

The article Thinker linked to is interesting and I really appreciate the author's framework, especially as it relates to sexism and stereotypes, but the narrative is far broader and deeper than the issue of Chaz's, or Brandon Teena's, or any one person's transition, coming out process, or identity. The narrative really is: Identity in the Context of a Sexist and Misogynistic Culture. It is a shared narrative, one that impacts all of us and that we are all responsible for.

And to be fair to Chazz, I believe I heard him say that he has always felt himself to be male (as opposed to becoming male), and even said that his relationship with his gf was never a "lesbian" relationship. It's difficult to hold Chaz alone accountable for the narrative/framework imposed upon all of us by sexism and misogyny.

Plus... I continue to find the use of the word "cis" (as used in the author's essay) to be problematic and have sexist/misogynistic implications when applied across the board to reference non-trans people. Like stereotypes, it's a simplification that upon closer examination, doesn't hold up well.
But maybe I'm hair-splitting.

[Quintease]

I've noticed that a lot of transmen feel a lot more understanding of men after transition, to the point of being sympathetic. Their libido's go up, they physically feel bigger, they start to realise what an aggressive world men live in, and they have to balance this new realisation with their understanding of the world they lived in before they became male.

What transmen lack, that perhaps Chaz forgot in his excitement, is the sense of entitlement that bio-boys are fed from birth. Women aren't supposed to enjoy sex, women are supposed to say no. Sex is the male arena. Even without the social pressures we expect, a female animal of any sort would take care who she slept with in case she became pregnant to the wrong male.

Hopefully when things have calmed down somewhat, Chaz will look back at some of the things he said in the public sphere (in fact he may have already done so), and acknowledge the many way he could have been misunderstood.

I'm really glad that everyone is talking about Chaz, it makes me happy.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by June

It is pretty alarming to read "...and I tune my girlfriend out because I am not interested in gossip anymore"

That is something I have heard coming out of the mouths of a few transguys, as well as read on online forums. My bf is also less interested in chitchat and gossip now that he's transitioned, which makes me wonder if there really is something going on. Maybe the hormones do make boys less verbal, which in turn would make them less interested in non-essential talk. I'm guessing too that Chaz, being in his adolescent stage at the time the documentary was made, pretty much behaved like most adolescents do - Self-absorbed, blustery and impatient.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by June

I haven't watched the documentary yet, but I have seen clips and read numerous interviews.

What I try to keep in mind is that just because Chaz is famous based on celebrity parents, does not mean that he is highly evolved or has done a lot of work with regards to sexism, et al.

It is pretty alarming to read "I don't have as much patience and I tune my girlfriend out because I am not interested in gossip anymore" (that is a paraphrase from an article I read) among other things -- And I didn't know too much about him before, but frankly, that made me think less of him, but also hopeful as he comes into more contact with men and their partners who have made this journey, he will become more sensitive and aware that being a man isn't just assuming, emulating or assimilating stereotypical "masculine" traits and that being a loving, caring, evolved human being should be the ultimate goal, regardless of gender or sex. Added bonus if your outside matches your inside and you feel more comfortable with yourself.

I am glad this is happening publicly though, because it is creating a lot of dialogue that wouldn't have otherwise happened. I try to put myself in the shoes of his mother, if my son came out to me as a woman, as much as I love and support him, it would also be a huge change for me, and I suspect I would have a grieving process of some kind before being able to move forward. I'd like to say I wouldn't miss a beat, but I know in my heart that's not true.

You are being very candid, June and I admire you for this- as much as my mother loved me and supported my being lesbian, she had a few "beats" to deal with and I think that is just plain human. The sexism displayed by Chaz is nothing new, unfortunately. No, it is the acceptance and rolling it into T effects that is nothing new. And I think this hurts Transmen and is an affront to them.

I get really tired of the T-blaming with this and feel that it is quite a negative view of transmen. Adolescent self-absorption does not justify sexist attitudes and behaviors- not for anyone. I certainly had many discussions with my son about this growing up. In fact, he came to me during adolescence and was the child of two alcoholics and a neglectful mother that due to her own abuse background, surrounded herself with abusive misogynists that my son viewed for many years as male role models. There was a lot to undo- it wasn't teen angst and puberty propagating sexism for him!

Also, grieving the loss of gender of a child, parent, sibling, friend, partner is an area of our whole response to transitioning that I think gets swept aside as the trans person's experiences become the main event. This bothers me a lot because we humans are "not islands." I know that even as trans supportive as I am, if my son transitioned, it would be difficult for me in some ways and I would grieve the loss of him as a male. Not very PC of me, I know, but truthful. Frankly, I would be concerned and scared about any possible health risks that could arise for him as well as just the usual fear of having someone you love undergo surgeries under anesthesia. I would deal with these things on my own and seek help for myself (not put my fears on him), but I know I would have these feelings. I also know that I would support him in every way possible.

Throughout the years with the (unfortunately) public trials of Chaz and his celebrity parents, I have felt there was a lot of self-absorption and immaturity. But, there are many Hollywood children that appear to be indulged, and end up doing some very self -destructive things (talking about drugs, alcohol, not transitioning). All ending up in the public eye- which in and of itself seems to add to the mess. For years, Chaz's weight struggles have been blasted all over the tube (he even was on the Biggest Loser), for example. Frankly, it seems like when he was female (to the outside world), these weight comments were common and worse- hummm… what does this say about weight issues and women as opposed to men? Now, his transitioning.

Part of me wonders just how much he really wanted such a public display of his life... yet, again. Or, did he just feel that no matter what he felt and wanted, there was no escape? So, he might as well let the cameras roll. There is just something in his defensive posturing (that was also part of Chastity that I remember) that always gives me pause. Something in his eyes that just felt/feels both angry and sad- even now that he has been able to transition. Maybe this will dissipate as he is able to live his life as who he always has been. I hope so.

I am happy that the trans community has found this documentary to be positive. But, I hope that Chaz finally just gets to have his own life. But, I don't see that happening and I think this is something Hollywood celebrity) kids pay a very high price for.- having a life.

I don’t know if other folks have done any searches online and run across some of the blogs, etc. by the general public about this documentary and Chaz- I have and it is upsetting. Very upsetting- most of them are in response not only to the documentary, but the appearances on shows like Piers Morgan and Joy Behar. The same old gender-ignorance in comments along with a lot of horrible comments about his obesity. Some really ugly things being said. Seeing this hurts and makes me wonder if there is any way to educate the general public about this at all. But, I have no idea how representative these are really. I would really like to see links that are to positive reactions from outside the LGBTIQ community. Please, post some if you have seen them. I can’t take any more of the kind I keep seeing. There is such a long way yet to go.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I didn't watch the documentary, but I just watched a 4 minute clip from him being on Letterman, and to me it reinforced the stuff the author was talking about from the link Thinker provided.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31749_16...-10391698.html

Maybe he is going through a bravado phase. When Letterman asked him if his interactions with women were different he said, well I think I frustrate my girlfriend more. I can be an "A." I can be insensitive. I can be a guy.


WTF?

That really bothered me too. I have to say that when I got on my full dose of T, my basic personality and the way I interact with people didn't change much. I am still me, still careful about how my words and deeds affect people, and I have made it a priority to not become self-absorbed into my transition. Whatever my friends and family are going through, I still try to be engaged in their lives and a source of support for them. I have always been sensitive to the feelings and needs of others, and that hasn't changed.

I was surprised and taken aback at how Chaz treated his girlfriend in the "kitchen" scene. And to say that when his girlfriend is upset she has to make everyone around her upset, well maybe Chaz needs to own his own feelings and not place her as responsible for them. That was my reaction when I watched the documentary.

However, since I have had some time to reflect, I have decided that I don't have enough context and exposure to their relationship to really understand what is going on with them. I am hesitant to pass judgment on someone else's relationship when I have so little exposure to it. The documentary gave us a glimpse, and I recognize that my initial feelings and thoughts about it all are based on a very limited amount of information.

As for some of his sexist comments about women and men in general, and his seeming assumption that being an asshole is just a male trait, those are things that irritate me because I know they aren't necessarily true. They aren't true for me! I keep thinking, and I don't want to be lumped into that stereotype. It is an ugly one and it doesn't have to be that way for men. My father is nothing like that. He is a kind and gentle soul who is very other-centered. I get these traits from him. I was raised by a father who isn't a sexist, self-absorbed pig. A lot of the assumptions that those are male traits ignores that fact that these are social constructs.