I am... and I prefer the term...

Kobi · 05-22-2011, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hi, Kobi.

The poll is asking

1) how you define

2) what you prefer to call people who are non trans. non trans meaning a person who is born into the correct body. Those people would fit the definition of the term cissexed and the other choices given.

There has been a push from the transsexed/transsexual/trans community to use the term cissexed. There has been some push back from non trans people. I am wondering people's preferences.

Hi Dapper,

Maybe my confusion is my choice isnt listed.

I define as female/woman and I prefer to refer to others as male/man or female/woman minus the clarification of how one got there.

DapperButch · 05-22-2011, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi

Hi Dapper,

Maybe my confusion is my choice isnt listed.

I define as female/woman and I prefer to refer to others as male/man or female/woman minus the clarification of how one got there.

Hi, Kobi. My guess is you define as a female identified butch, correct?

The second part of the question is if you call people who do not identify as trans, cissexed, bio male or bio female, or xy male and xx female in conversation.

BullDog · 05-22-2011, 09:19 AM

I don't know about Kobi, but I am a butch woman. I don't identify as a female identified butch. I don't use that language. To me female is my biological sex not my gender. I don't like the classification scheme where people divide butches up based on female-identified vs. male identified.

DapperButch · 05-22-2011, 09:22 AM

You know what? I had a question. I did the best I could. I really am not getting why this is continuing to be picked apart. Seriously.

Linus, could this thread please be closed? All it has become is me explaining why I did what and no discussion is happening.

ETA:I certainly don't mind answering questions, but the point of the thread has been lost and I don't see that shifting.

BullDog · 05-22-2011, 09:23 AM

Dapper I am not picking you apart. I just don't id as female identified or male identified.

Quintease · 05-22-2011, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

You know what? I had a question. I did the best I could. I really am not getting why this is continuing to be picked apart. Seriously.

Linus, could this thread please be closed? All it has become is me explaining why I did what and no discussion is happening.

ETA:I certainly don't mind answering questions, but the point of the thread has been lost and I don't see that shifting.

I'm with you and I understood right away what you were trying to do. I really wish this had turned into a conversation as it it something I am very interested in.

Quintease · 05-22-2011, 12:06 PM

But maybe we can continue the conversation now. I know every one has their own terminology and it would be nice to see what language we all use.

Corkey · 05-22-2011, 02:01 PM

I am just what my descriptor oveh there <--------- says. Most of all I am a human being. One can never please all of the people all of the time Dapper.
We're all individuals and as such there just aren't enough descriptors of every one of us. I think your poll is a good example of how we are so far from heteronormative, and this is a good thing. I think defining who we are is an ongoing and fluid thing for many of us.
Yey you for giving it a go!

AtLast · 05-22-2011, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

You know what? I had a question. I did the best I could. I really am not getting why this is continuing to be picked apart. Seriously.

Linus, could this thread please be closed? All it has become is me explaining why I did what and no discussion is happening.ETA:I certainly don't mind answering questions, but the point of the thread has been lost and I don't see that shifting.

Which is usually what happens among us when we attempt to talk about gender. I'm sorry this turned into a fiasco for you Dapper.

What I have learned from all of the endless discussion about gender identification within our community is that it is just not steadfast- and could be very fluid, or evolving for many of us at any given time. The literature changes all of the time as new studies are published and we see new ways of considering our identities. That feels positive to me because I can gain understanding in new ways.

I am a Female-Identified Butch WOMAN that views the Gender Blended Female Person model as most accurate for how I have and continue to experience myself. This model date back into the 90's. Just fits for me.

Mostly, I try to hear what someone else prefers, which I know you do as well.

BullDog · 05-22-2011, 02:51 PM

I personally don't think anyone is giving Dapper a hard time. I don't like the butch classification scheme. I never have. Dapper didn't invent it. Other people are not seeing where they fit in as well.

Some have participated in the poll, some haven't. I did not, but I gave my thoughts on the question asked.

DapperButch · 05-22-2011, 03:04 PM

I appreciate everyone's thoughts. Certainly I could have done better with my explanation as to what I was trying to get to in my opening post.

In the post I focused on explaining the poll and focused on describing our identities (it was actually an attempt to AVOID what happened anyway), but what I really wanted to talk about was the term cissexed and what folks think of the term.

I was thinking back to when it was first discussed, sometime ago starting with Dylan and with other things that were said it seemed as through the greater trans community was seeking that the term start being used instead of bio male/bio female, for example.

Every time I write the term bio male now I wonder if it is insulting to any trans members here. Yet, I have heard non trans folks say often that they don't like the term. That is where I wanted to go with this thread.

BullDog, I appreciate your participation and any additional thoughts you may have about the subject, as I recall you being a non trans person who did not like the term cissexed from way back when it was first discussed. I'd appreciate it if we got away from the continued discussion about the identities I used in the poll.

Kobi · 05-22-2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hi, Kobi. My guess is you define as a female identified butch, correct?

The second part of the question is if you call people who do not identify as trans, cissexed, bio male or bio female, or xy male and xx female in conversation.

Dapper,

Sparkle's post rang true to me and may explain why I am having so much difficulty with this.

I never experienced a discrepancy between the internal and external manifestations of my gender. I am a female/woman. The struggles others may experience in this area was never part of my experience or mindset or thought process.

I also never experienced any discrepancy between my gender and my sexual orientation. I am a lesbian. It never occured to me to have to or want to define myself as male or female identified. It's kind of like what part of lesbian isnt clear?

The only discrepancies I have run into are the ones where my sense of who I am as a woman and a lesbian conflict with societal expectations/definitions/labels of what a woman and lesbian are.

I feel the same discrepancy within the queer subculture which seems more comfortable using labels/concepts that dont fit who I am as a way to define who I am for whatever purpose it may serve.

In my everyday life, I refer to myself as a lesbian which implies both my gender and sexual orientation. I rarely have the need to label it further.

In everyday life, I refer to others as male or female. It never occured to me to define or have the need to define their journey to male or female. After my exposure to gender issues/discussions on this site, it still seemed more respectful, to me, to refer to the end product, so to speak, rather than the journey when dealing with individuals. Maybe I need to rethink this.

I do see how on a societal level, agreeing on acceptable terms/label/descriptors would be helpful in furthering gender exploration/development/possibilites and integrating them into the prevailing binary system.

Gemme · 05-22-2011, 11:11 AM

I am femme and I prefer the term femme.

View Poll Results: I am a _____ and I prefer the term ______
Femme and I prefer the term cissexed	11	16.67%
Femme and I prefer the terms XY Male / XX Female	2	3.03%
Femme and I prefer the terms Bio Male/ Bio Female	20	30.30%
Female Identified Butch and I prefer the term cissexed	2	3.03%
Female Identified Butch and I prefer the terms XY Male/XX Female	1	1.52%
Female Identified Butch and I prefer the terms Bio Male/Bio Female	5	7.58%
Transgendered Butch (neither male nor female) and I prefer the term cissexed	2	3.03%
Transgendered Butch (neither male nor female) and I prefer the terms XY Male and XX Female	3	4.55%
Transgendered Butch (neither male nor female) and I prefer the terms Bio Male and Bio Female	5	7.58%
Male Identified Butch and I prefer the term transsexed	0	0%
Male Identified Butch and I prefer the terms XY Male and XX Female	0	0%
Male Identified Butch and I prefer the terms Bio Male and Bio Female	2	3.03%
Transsexed person ON hormones and prefer the term cissexed	1	1.52%
Transsexed person ON hormones and I prefer the terms XY Male and XX Female	3	4.55%
Transsexed person ON hormones and I prefer the terms Bio Male and Bio Female	5	7.58%
Transsexed person NOT on hormones and I prefer the term cissexed	1	1.52%
Transsexed person NOT on hormones and I prefer the terms XY Male and XX Female	0	0%
Transsexed person NOT on hormone and I prefer the terms Bio Male and Bio Female	3	4.55%
Voters: 66. You may not vote on this poll

05-22-2011, 09:22 AM	#4
DapperButch Roadster Guy How Do You Identify?: FTM, Stone Butch Preferred Pronoun?: He Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northeast Posts: 7,745 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 26,545 Thanked 26,814 Times in 5,772 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	You know what? I had a question. I did the best I could. I really am not getting why this is continuing to be picked apart. Seriously. Linus, could this thread please be closed? All it has become is me explaining why I did what and no discussion is happening. ETA:I certainly don't mind answering questions, but the point of the thread has been lost and I don't see that shifting. __________________ -Dapper Are you educated or indoctrinated?

05-22-2011, 12:06 PM	#7
Quintease Member How Do You Identify?: Rainbow femme Preferred Pronoun?: princess Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 514 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 508 Thanked 1,817 Times in 417 Posts Rep Power: 10560327	But maybe we can continue the conversation now. I know every one has their own terminology and it would be nice to see what language we all use. __________________ It is not worth an intelligent person's time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.

05-22-2011, 02:01 PM	#8
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,270 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	I am just what my descriptor oveh there <--------- says. Most of all I am a human being. One can never please all of the people all of the time Dapper. We're all individuals and as such there just aren't enough descriptors of every one of us. I think your poll is a good example of how we are so far from heteronormative, and this is a good thing. I think defining who we are is an ongoing and fluid thing for many of us. Yey you for giving it a go! __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

05-22-2011, 03:04 PM	#11
DapperButch Roadster Guy How Do You Identify?: FTM, Stone Butch Preferred Pronoun?: He Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northeast Posts: 7,745 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 26,545 Thanked 26,814 Times in 5,772 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	I appreciate everyone's thoughts. Certainly I could have done better with my explanation as to what I was trying to get to in my opening post. In the post I focused on explaining the poll and focused on describing our identities (it was actually an attempt to AVOID what happened anyway), but what I really wanted to talk about was the term cissexed and what folks think of the term. I was thinking back to when it was first discussed, sometime ago starting with Dylan and with other things that were said it seemed as through the greater trans community was seeking that the term start being used instead of bio male/bio female, for example. Every time I write the term bio male now I wonder if it is insulting to any trans members here. Yet, I have heard non trans folks say often that they don't like the term. That is where I wanted to go with this thread. BullDog, I appreciate your participation and any additional thoughts you may have about the subject, as I recall you being a non trans person who did not like the term cissexed from way back when it was first discussed. I'd appreciate it if we got away from the continued discussion about the identities I used in the poll. __________________ -Dapper Are you educated or indoctrinated?

05-22-2011, 09:19 AM	#3
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,665 Times in 4,464 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I don't know about Kobi, but I am a butch woman. I don't identify as a female identified butch. I don't use that language. To me female is my biological sex not my gender. I don't like the classification scheme where people divide butches up based on female-identified vs. male identified.

05-22-2011, 09:23 AM	#5
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,665 Times in 4,464 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Dapper I am not picking you apart. I just don't id as female identified or male identified.

05-22-2011, 02:51 PM	#10
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,665 Times in 4,464 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I personally don't think anyone is giving Dapper a hard time. I don't like the butch classification scheme. I never have. Dapper didn't invent it. Other people are not seeing where they fit in as well. Some have participated in the poll, some haven't. I did not, but I gave my thoughts on the question asked.

05-22-2011, 11:11 AM	#13
Gemme Practically Lives Here How Do You Identify?: Queer Stone Femme Girl of the Unicorn Variety Preferred Pronoun?: She, as in 'She's a GEM' Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The roads are narrow here Posts: 36,631 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 182,498 Thanked 107,972 Times in 25,664 Posts Rep Power: 21474888	Keeping it Simple, Silly I am femme and I prefer the term femme. __________________ Gemme's Journal I'm misunderestimated.