Possible Triggering: Violence against butches.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

Uh.. would anyone have any objections if I added "Possibly Triggering" at the beginning of the topic? Given some of the graphic descriptions that have appeared and that might yet appear, I can imagine that this might be a bit distressing for some.

Linus- I do object. Would you add "Triggering" to threads about violence against transpeople, or femmes? Or, Stone sexuality, BDSM, etc. threads all within their respective Zones? Doing this is distressing to me because the thread is within the Butch Zone.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Linus- I do object. Would you add "Triggering" to threads about violence against transpeople, or femmes? Or, Stone sexuality, BDSM, etc. threads all within their respective Zones? Doing this is distressing to me because the thread is within the Butch Zone.

Actually, if it got as graphic and might potentially cause someone to relive an attack, yes I would. It's not the who but the what. I can remove it but I was trying to be sensitive to those that may end up reliving attacks as a result of reading here and not realizing how graphic the discussion might get.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

Actually, if it got as graphic and might potentially cause someone to relive an attack, yes I would. It's not the who but the what. I can remove it but I was trying to be sensitive to those that may end up reliving attacks as a result of reading here and not realizing how graphic the discussion might get.

OK, this makes sense to me. I am a little sensitive to not being able to have a butch space. Although, I would most certainly call out anyone that made any that made transphobic, sexist, racist, etc. remarks in any zone or thread.

I mis-read your intent-

I was hoping that the thread would be a safe place for butches to talk about our experiences as butches. And I'm sure many transguys that identified as butch prior to transitioning would have a lot to add as well as support- they have lived it too.

[Heart]

I think it's odd that the most graphic description here was given by a femme about a straight man.

First of all, it is simply not true that men are victims of violence "just as much if not more" than women. No one should be subjected to violence, but please take a look at FBI statistics, Dept of Justice statistics, and world-wide statistics such as those distributed by Amnesty International, and you will see that women suffer from violence in staggeringly, unequivocally higher numbers than men. A "few stories" one hears does not translate to men being vulnerable to violence at the same rate as women. Yes, if all men reported violence/abuse their stats would go up. but if all women reported, (which they do not and cannot), their stats would go up as well, and the statistical ratio would not likely change all that much. Men are more likely to be attacked by strangers. Women are more likely to be attacked by intimates, which makes them less likely to report.

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker. To derail that by talking about violence towards men seems inappropriate to me.

Heart

I'm so very sorry that any of you have had violence visited upon you because of your sexuality.

I count myself even luckier that I haven't had that experience.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

I think it's odd that the most graphic description here was given by a femme about a straight man.

First of all, it is simply not true that men are victims of violence "just as much if not more" than women. No one should be subjected to violence, but please take a look at FBI statistics, Dept of Justice statistics, and world-wide statistics such as those distributed by Amnesty International, and you will see that women suffer from violence in staggeringly, unequivocally higher numbers than men. A "few stories" one hears does not translate to men being vulnerable to violence at the same rate as women. Yes, if all men reported violence/abuse their stats would go up. but if all women reported, (which they do not and cannot), their stats would go up as well, and the statistical ratio would not likely change all that much. Men are more likely to be attacked by strangers. Women are more likely to be attacked by intimates, which makes them less likely to report.

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker. To derail that by talking about violence towards men seems inappropriate to me.
Heart

Yes we are targeted as non-conforming women/females in the eyes of the attacker. And this is very difficult for a lot of us- especially when we embrace more fluid definitions of gender as well as try to navigate the world as a butch person. This is a unique dynamic that I wouldn't mind hearing about from other butches from a butch perspective. I have not always identified as a butch and value other butches experiences that have dealt with these things for a long time (and prior to tranistioning).

[Rockinonahigh]

I had to look twice at the title of this subject,Merlin tks for starting it.Over the years I have had some things happen that were either stuff I could just blow off to haveing to out right hot quit a job for my own safty,yes I did all I could do to go threw the chain of comamd to see if this could be stoped but it did little good.It was sexual harrasment to the tenth degree,it got to where this bio male person was parking his car next to mine in the employees parking lot and as we got off work at 2:am in the morning I was walking into a near dark area,no security guard,no security cams... nada,needless it had already become a very dangerous situation for me.This happened at a local casino,finaly it all ended up in the HR department but as I had felt I had to walk out of the job for my own safty..I was at fault for quiting..Yes they did a minor investagation into it but I was told no one would back my story even tho it was something every one on my shift and department knew what was going on..better theire jobs be safe that anything pertaining to me.I talked to an attlrney he said I had to have whittnesses that were willing to tell the truth in a court of law.The lawyer in fact told me to suck it up cause I would play hell in proveing it.I wished I had had a way to persue this but its been a long time as this happened on 2005.The rest of the crap ive delt with has been stuff about the bathroom or comments about the butchie boi thinks hes a man thing or just plain beng ask to leave a resturant once cause the group I was with made the customers incomfortable..ect,ect.
One thing that has been on my mind is me flying to little rock for the reunion,will I have any probs to deal with at the airport or the public,beleave me its not stoping me from going.I have a ride if I can swing the time to leave off on hys scedual.

[atomiczombie]

I haven't been physically assaulted, thank heaven. About 6 years ago when I was working at the Harley dealership, I was outside directing the motorcycle traffic into the parking lot during a special event we held. Some teenage boys came down the street in their pick up and yelled "F*ggot!" at me, and I (at the time I ID'd as butch) said its DYKE you idiots!! a bit louder than I probably should have since I was at work, but I was pissed.

Also around that time I was walking from my car up the long driveway to my apartment and some other teenage boys started following me. I could hear them whispering and laughing. I was so close to turning around and asking them what the fuck was so funny, but I was close to home and I didn't want my kid and wife to see me getting my ass kicked. That is the only time I have felt my personal safety was in danger. I just kept walking and went home. One of the boys lived in my complex so they knew where I lived already.

I have gone into a grocery store, only to come out and find that someone had spit all over my windshield. I still get stares all the time, dirty looks, etc. Someone put scrapes all over my HRC sticker on my bumper of my previous car. Guess they couldn't rip it off. I am sure there are other little things like this but this is all that comes to mind right now.

I count myself lucky to have only experienced these small things. I am really sorry to hear that so many of you have had it a lot worse.

[BullDog]

I have never been sexually or physically assaulted. I have been threatened with physical violence. I've had dyke yelled at me many times. I have had males on more than one occasion get up close into my personal space to try to intimidate me. I had a guy once sit next to me on the bus and make fun of my small amount of peach fuzz over my upper lip (don't think it's enough to qualify for mustache, lol). I had two guys come and sit right next to me at a restaurant and start talking homophobic crap (I got up and moved). I have been out with a femme and had men ask why they would be with an ugly woman like me. I once was visiting a femme and her mailbox was vandalized. I have been denied service at barbershops. I've been told I don't belong in the men's department and had store clerks talking to each other wondering why they are always stuck helping the freaks. I've had lots of weird stares and dirty looks and people sometimes seem to avoid sitting next to me.

I feel very fortunate that I have not experienced sexual or physical assault like so many other butches have.

[AishasWrath]

I've gotten grief from people for being butch...lots of it, in subtle and blatant ways. What's interesting is I got the more overt meanness after I gained weight. Before when I was skinny I only got passive-aggressive nastiness that was cloaked in therapy language about it.

"There's that F-word who thinks he's a D-word," that statement still haunts my dreams. It was the first strike of a campaign of harassment that nearly cost me my college education. "I have gay friends, but that...disgusting." "Crazy." "Stupid." The friends I had, my self-styled caretakers, weren't there. They said I was exaggerating and overreacting. They told me to ignore it. Some of them poked fun at me for being masculine too. Oh, but it was all in good fun! And it was justified because if I actually identified as male I wasn't marginalized so it was totally ok...and they had license to disparage masculinity all the time in front of me and roll their eyes if I protested...I was on my own. Being stalked, harassed, followed...probably nonconsensually photographed and videotaped, maybe even doxxed. And it was either "you're imagining it," "just ignore it," or that I somehow deserved it for getting above myself or betraying some group who laid claim to my life.

Before that, my mode of being was taken for a mental illness. People tried to read sexism, racism, any and every -ism they could into it. There were all the hoary old anti-butch mudslings and then some. Because I wasn't "doing butch" in the stereotypical way and I wasn't exclusively attracted to women, there were more. My affiliation with masculinity was construed as a toxic need for power and a statement of oppressiveness. "If you identify as female, why don't you want to be feminine? If you identify as male, what's wrong with being female? If you're butch, why do you want to have long hair and wear eyeliner? If you're attracted to men, why are you stone? If you're stone, why do you focus on your own pleasure? Why can't you be masculine in a more appropriate (read: preppie) way? Don't challenge men or make them angry, they're bigger than you and could hurt or kill you! Stop taking martial arts classes and working out, violence is bad and you could hurt someone!" These sentiments were from a self-professed feminist therapist.

Not following the sexist rules for socializing got twisted into "lack of social skills" or "lack of empathy." Getting mad about it was out of the question. I had to internalize all of that or continue to be incarcerated and overmedicated.

And by the time true naked bigotry reared its ugly head I wasn't in a position to effectively fight back, or have what was going on acknowledged. It's so seamless, creepily seamless, almost like it's theme-park engineered. I don't know what to make of it, other than something has gone wronger than wrong.

[Hack]

I've never been physically assaulted. I've been verbally assaulted a few times. My favorite being when I was called "he/she/it -- whatever you are" by an irate customer at a video store I used to manage. Once while in Nashville, my girlfriend and I were followed down the street by some drunken men who were saying rather rude things. I turned around once and said something back, which threw them off, I think, because they stopped following us.

When I am in places I am not familiar with, I feel myself being more aware of my surroundings. But I don't live in a paranoid state. I tend to approach people without apology, meaning I don't act timid or apologetic because I am queer. My attitude is pretty much -- this is me, deal with it.

[Rockinonahigh]

I have gotten the wrong bathroom coment lots of times right along with a manager of a wall mart comeing into the bathroom to tell me security was comeing to remove me from there,I showed her my drivers licence wich solved the problem but the situation dose happen again when I go to wall mart and some other places.Often I am very aware of the comments and stares of f-in dyke or dam trannies comments,when I was much younger I was involved in some outright fist fights because of being who I am.Even now in places where I least expect to deal with this it happends,lately its happends at one of the pool halls I go to by another butch on one of the other teams...she gives me the worst dirty looks or makes filipant coments all the time..whene ever my team is in a match with hers she always manages to not play a match with me and has told her team captain she wouldnt so not to play us against each other.I have no clue what her prob is,but its hers not mine.A couple of months ago a gay man was beat up at a pool hall by a straight man with the but end of a pool stick very badly and is now in a nurseing home due to his injuries leaveing him so messed up.
I just keep it in mind cause to get to comfy isnt being careful as much as I would like it to be other wise,I park my car in as safe a place as possable and hopefuly a placed where a security cam is avalable,not that its would do much for protection but as some evedence if I ever needed it..if the cam even works or is used.In this day and age its too bad we have to still deal with such violence against glbt folks,I doubt if it ever will be totaly gone but do have hopes it will become a punishable crime to be taken seriously and steps taken to punish the perps and make it stick insted of brushing it off into some other chatges...hate is hate no matter how u paint it.

[AtLast]

Another electrifying packing device to consider! Yes, I have put a 250 plus pound jackass down to the ground with this!



I don't want to carry a firearm and these are legal in almost all states and very effective.

[Glenn]

When said jackass is boring down on you with intent to harm or kill you, you will have to wait until you make contact and hold it on them for a good 4 or 5 seconds with some stun guns. This gives them time to brush it away. You also have to factor in the resistance of the human body. Is he wearing inductive clothes? Does he have a weak nervous system? This is why there are instances where stun guns can kill people, or be brushed off like a bee sting. It has it's uses, it's better than nothing, but I still would'nt use this for home self defense.

[MarineCorps1]

I've never been physically assaulted, but I've come close - At fourteen, I was riding bikes with a friend, and we went past the home of one of our school's football players. He was outside & saw us, and came running across his yard at me & when he got close, he kicked out at my bike, screaming at the top of his lungs, "YOU LOOK LIKE A FUCKING MAN!!!!" (I was wearing ripped up jeans and a T-shirt.) It was broad daylight on the main street of a small town.

At the time, I had no idea of what my identity actually was, and I couldn't understand why it was that I looked like a man when my friend was wearing essentially the same thing, and she didn't. I wasn't offended at being told I looked like a man, I just didn't understand it.

Beyond that, I've gotten the usual - People driving by and yelling at me, stares, etc.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Heart

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker. To derail that by talking about violence towards men seems inappropriate to me.

I disagree. There are butches out there who have been assaulted not for being a non-conforming woman, but for being a non-conforming or "unidentifiable" person. In that way, many who are identified as "queer" "not straight" or "non-cis" in some way are not necessarily being seen by their assaulter as a woman or even as a man. They are "freaks" which is another aspect of the dehumanization that occurs in violent and sexual assaults against non-conforming people.

Of course, there are also butches who do experience rape as women, and who are raped for being non-conforming women. But plastering that one experience on every butch is an incorrect generalization...and vice versa of course.

The second issue is that if one does not experience themselves as a woman, if one does not identify as a woman, then I believe it's wrong to generalize and say that they experienced the assault as a woman. Thinking back to the assault of Branden Tina as an example, after his death so many tried to write him off as a "lesbian" and even the movie they made about him tries to portray him as a woman following the sexual assault he experienced. I think that it is really important in these conversations to recognise that differences in experience, as far as saying whether someone experiences something as a "man" or as a "woman." I would never say that a transwoman who has been raped experienced her rape as a "man," for example. Saying that butches who don't id as women or female experience assault as a woman also feels like the aggressor who is trying to "correct their orientation/gender" through rape has achieved their goal both in their own eyes and in the eyes of outsiders looking in on the situation...that male id'd butches or trans id'd butches are "guys until they get raped." In such traumatic cases I think we should be more understanding of how each victim perceives their own assault.

Instead of bringing instances of XY men being raped, or non-butch women being raped into this thread, why not just stick to how butches feel about the issue no matter if they id as a woman or not.

[AtLast]

My personal experience with rape, harrassment, and physical assualt has been keely tied to homophobia and sexism as a female/woman as a butch individual.

I sure see how these can be experienced differently depending on gender identifications because it is variable and complex.

Most of the verbal assaults I have experienced have been very homophobic in nature- dyke, queer, bull-dagger, etc. being used in a derogatory and taunting manner. Things like "you want to suck my dick" or "cock" being slung my way. When I was younger, there were more than a few times the old "all you really need is a good fuck" (by a man of course) was hurled my way.

I can't count the times I have been accused of really wanting to be a man due to my butch presentation. Butches are not viewed as legitimate women or men. Which, actually has been something that has given me a better understanding of all forms of violence related to gender across the board. I am woman not recognized as such by heteronormative society and the traditional binary.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Of course, there are also butches who do experience rape as women, and who are raped for being non-conforming women. But plastering that one experience on every butch is an incorrect generalization...and vice versa of course.

WTF?

Dammit Ender I did NOT say every butch, I said many butches. Nor did I speak for anyone, I spoke theoretically about butches who experience assault because the attacker sees them as non-conforming women, which frankly rapists consider the exact same thing as a freak. Do you think Brandon Tina's rapists saw him as a man for one second? This is exactly the nature of homophobic, sexist rapes. The identity of the victim is erased. In fact MEN are raped in order to feminize them, to strip them of manhood. So, don't lecture me about identity in the face of rape Ender. And for you to equate what I said with the perpetrator is beyond comprehension, incredibly offensive, and hurtful. I have zero desire to interact with you again.

[BullDog]

It doesn't matter whether you identify as a woman or not. If you are not read as male you are subject to rape as a non-conforming woman. I also agree with Heart that many (if not most) rapes perpetuated against men is a way to feminize them, as a form of humiliation. Rape is about power not sex. Military regimes also attempt to feminize men as a way to humiliate and torture. I seriously doubt Branden Tina's rapists thought they were raping a man. I don't believe too many people are raped as "its." They know what parts a person has when they are raping them and most people don't go much beyond the gender spectrum of man and woman. Remember how we are supposedly fighting the binary?

All the stories told by butches so far point to lots of homophobia. If the butches were being read as straight males that would not be occurring.

If you want to help fight homophobia and transphobia and sexism stand up with women. You are being treated the same or very similar when it comes to sexual assault. Homophobia and transphobia share the same root as misogyny- that is sexism. Within sexism male and man is valued over female and woman. Stand WITH women- you are being treated similar or the same because of how women are devalued and brutalized. Stop trying to lecture women and stand WITH us.

[Kätzchen]

BullDog, do you mind if I add to your thoughts on this?

I know first hand that rape is about power.

I identify as a Femme but not too long ago (less than three years to be exact), I most often was mis-read as being butch (especially by others claiming the identifier of Femme). Before that, it wasn't even about how I identified. It's think it's painfully apparent that I am female and that I am a woman and not so apparent that I'm a Femme.

So to me, it's not about butch or femme identity.

To me, the tool of rape is about power.