Head-Spinning Political Shit!

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I like your use of cult here- they all are under a form of hypnosis, I think. Oh yeah, private sector disaster relief, Uh, huh....

It's bizarre. I understand that politicians speak in generalities but this has gotten elevated to something creepy. It's not quite as bad as what's below but I'm not really stretching things too badly:

Moderator: So, Ms GOP candidate, do you think that hospitals should be able to turn away the same-sex partner of a patient because that doctor or nurse doesn't consider them family?

GOP candidate: I believe in strengthening the traditional family which is a man and a woman.

Moderator: What specific proposals do you have for ameliorating the trouble in the housing market?

GOP candidate: We don't need government in the housing business. If we let the free market drive the housing business then it will work out the best solution.

Moderator: Do you support non-discrimination laws in housing or employment?

GOP candidate: I believe that the free market will reward companies that behave well and punish companies that behave badly.

Moderator: Are there any military bases you would close or weapon systems you would like to see the Pentagon not purchase?

GOP candidate: America is free because we have the best and strongest military in the world. I support our troops.

Moderator: Are there any non-military functions you think the government should be involved in?

GOP candidate: Throughout American history we've seen that we do best when we embrace free market principles.

Moderator: What place do you think religion should have on public policy and law?

GOP candidate: America was founded as a Christian nation and our rights come from God.

Now, is there anything above that you think is too over-the-top to come out of the mouth of some GOP pol when asked one of those questions? I took some of those answers, nearly verbatim, from the GOP presidential debate last night. Those answers are empty. They are mantras not responses. One would not be stretching the matter too much if you were to imagine a GOP call and response chorus

"Jobs?" "Free market!" "Pollution?" "Free market!" You get the idea. The GOP has become a party of theology. By that I mean that they have completely divorced their ideology from the real world. It simply does not *matter* what the empirical facts are any longer. All that matters is that they believe it to be true and that is enough for them. Anyone who does not believe is an infidel.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

It's bizarre. I understand that politicians speak in generalities but this has gotten elevated to something creepy. It's not quite as bad as what's below but I'm not really stretching things too badly:

Moderator: So, Ms GOP candidate, do you think that hospitals should be able to turn away the same-sex partner of a patient because that doctor or nurse doesn't consider them family?

GOP candidate: I believe in strengthening the traditional family which is a man and a woman.

Moderator: What specific proposals do you have for ameliorating the trouble in the housing market?

GOP candidate: We don't need government in the housing business. If we let the free market drive the housing business then it will work out the best solution.

Moderator: Do you support non-discrimination laws in housing or employment?

GOP candidate: I believe that the free market will reward companies that behave well and punish companies that behave badly.

Moderator: Are there any military bases you would close or weapon systems you would like to see the Pentagon not purchase?

GOP candidate: America is free because we have the best and strongest military in the world. I support our troops.

Moderator: Are there any non-military functions you think the government should be involved in?

GOP candidate: Throughout American history we've seen that we do best when we embrace free market principles.

Moderator: What place do you think religion should have on public policy and law?

GOP candidate: America was founded as a Christian nation and our rights come from God.

Now, is there anything above that you think is too over-the-top to come out of the mouth of some GOP pol when asked one of those questions? I took some of those answers, nearly verbatim, from the GOP presidential debate last night. Those answers are empty. They are mantras not responses. One would not be stretching the matter too much if you were to imagine a GOP call and response chorus"Jobs?" "Free market!" "Pollution?" "Free market!" You get the idea. The GOP has become a party of theology. By that I mean that they have completely divorced their ideology from the real world. It simply does not *matter* what the empirical facts are any longer. All that matters is that they believe it to be true and that is enough for them. Anyone who does not believe is an infidel.

Cheers
Aj

Yes, infidels, every one!

What you speak to in terms of mantras and empty GOP cheerleading resonates with me. I see it with the Dems at times during elections as well and it just plain angers me. Say something often enough, it gains truth status- even in the face of solid research data that refutes it. This is the dumbing-down of the general voting public rhetoric within politics today that leaves me seething.

Believing that the free market system will self-correct to the benefit of anyone that is not wealthy is just plain false. In fact, this very free market system is at the root of our economic strife right now for the general US population. And the very people that shout out the perils of government regulation and size live totally outside of the same reality of middle, lower-middle and working class people.

I can struggle internally about some of government restrictions on small business- and I am talking about real small businesses- not S status businesses that make tens of millions of dollars in profit each year and enjoy tax exemptions that if applied to median income people would make a very big difference to them. Some regulation does get in the way of small businesses being able to keep their work force employed- but the big, multi-national S corps making record profits in the billions are withholding job creation in the private sector and are the ones that profit by relocation in other countries. Franchisees like, your local Ace hardware, for example, do have a hell of a time staying afloat these days in paying an inordinate amount of taxes as compared to giants of industry like Shell Oil, etc.

The free market system benefits a very small group of elite corporations at the top- not the businesses most of us interact with in our everyday lives.

But, I digress.. yes, the mantras prevail and for the life of me, I did not see one thinking human being on that stage Monday night that had a substantive proposal to actually create more jobs that the US can look foreword to having in the future in a very different time than post-WWII. What worked economically then, will not now and we have to face this truth.

Without keeping talent that gets educated in the US only to return to another country due to our insane immigration/citizenship policies along with accepting that science and technology is the present and future economic road to advancement- we are not going to get out of this economic rut. Our educational system is very broken and we are the laughing stock of the world in terms of this. We can't allow mediocrity to prevail in our schools- we do need the best and the brightest teaching in our schools which means much higher standards and pay for our educators. And this is going to take much more in early childhood education bolstered with quality supports for at risk kids. Trying to change things later in schools is just stupid- start from pre-school ages (the least respected and paid educators in the US). And we need to face the fact that not every kid is “college material” and there is nothing wrong with this- but build trade education and apprenticeship programs up.

When are we going to call out the mantra cult-like state of our politicians and say ENOUGH? I don't believe this will change, however, until or unless we have publically funded election systems and stop all private contributions. Silly me. I can’t help but think about what the billions of dollars spent on elections in the US could mean for building a state of the art educational system that actually is equal in opportunity and addresses the skills and potential contributions of all children. I know, I’m a dreamer.

[iamkeri1]

I can not believe that F++++++ Anthony Weiner resigned!!!

I can not believe that the F++++++ Democrats pushed him to resign!!!

One of the strongest liberals in Congressed has been forced to lay down his cudgel and go home.

Seems I remember when Democrats were liberals. What the f+++ happened?

So now the f++++++ Republicans have yet another weapons to use against the Democrats. Amazing how those family values a+++++++ hold other people to higher moral standard than they hold themselves.

S+++!!!

Can you tell I'm upset?

Smooches,
Keri

[GoddessJess]

I love how I can sit here and read so many different posts written so many different way and a lot of them say the same thing. Politics is a twisted game. I cant remember a single time when I remember hearing the truth...the first time around...It's always Oh I diddnt do it then...oh yea I did! It cracks me up. As far as republicans and democrats and liberals and the tea party (wich just the name cracks me up) they all have one common goal and thats their own agendas! Gay rights, abortion, the markets, the economy these are all touchy subjects, I think they just try to find the touchiest of them all, wich seems to be sexting latly, find the biggest affected crowd and then side with them! It's like a sick cat and mouse game...under what egg will the attention fall today?
Prisions are overcrowded, hell yes they are...rehab services?? I have known a lot of people that went to rehab and well they diddnt turn out so great!
My idea..in all my infinite wisdom...PUT THEM TO WORK!
give them tents and stick them someplace where there is work to be done! build something, clear something hell for once in your life do something that the tax payers are paying for anyways!
I love that guy in AZ that stuck them all in pink and made them work for a living!
I'm just sayin!

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by GoddessJess

I love how I can sit here and read so many different posts written so many different way and a lot of them say the same thing. Politics is a twisted game. I cant remember a single time when I remember hearing the truth...the first time around...It's always Oh I diddnt do it then...oh yea I did! It cracks me up. As far as republicans and democrats and liberals and the tea party (wich just the name cracks me up) they all have one common goal and thats their own agendas! Gay rights, abortion, the markets, the economy these are all touchy subjects, I think they just try to find the touchiest of them all, wich seems to be sexting latly, find the biggest affected crowd and then side with them! It's like a sick cat and mouse game...under what egg will the attention fall today?
Prisions are overcrowded, hell yes they are...rehab services?? I have known a lot of people that went to rehab and well they diddnt turn out so great!
My idea..in all my infinite wisdom...PUT THEM TO WORK!
give them tents and stick them someplace where there is work to be done! build something, clear something hell for once in your life do something that the tax payers are paying for anyways!
I love that guy in AZ that stuck them all in pink and made them work for a living!
I'm just sayin!

Are you serious or is this a bit of tongue in cheek?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Are you serious or is this a bit of tongue in cheek?

After this long in these communities, do you really need to ask that question, my friend?

Cheers
Aj

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

After this long in these communities, do you really need to ask that question, my friend?

Cheers
Aj

laughin.......I know I know.......but in the spirit of community building I thought I would ask...

it does appear she has been drinking

[dreadgeek]

I wonder how long it will take for Americans to decide that being a constitutional republic is just too demanding and that perhaps, we should have a less open, less republican form of government and go for something with a lot less emphasis on messy legal niceties like the rights of citizens, avoidance of cruel or unusual punishment, or social cohesion. I ponder this because in the last couple of decades I've seen a lot of anti-republican talk and it appears to be increasing.

Consider that non-trivial numbers of citizens now think that trial by jury, the accused having rights, the police having to follow rules, warrants for searches and prisons that are not concentration camps are undesirable things. Consider that non-trivial numbers of citizens believe that the First Amendment, particularly the parts of freedom of conscience (religion), does not apply to Muslims. Consider that non-trivial numbers of citizens believe that Article VI, Section III of the Constitution which states, in part, "..no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States" does not apply to Muslims and may not apply to atheists either. Consider that non-trivial numbers of citizens believe that torture is acceptable. Lastly, consider that vast numbers, perhaps even majority given the way we dialog about politics, think that they get to have their own facts and that facts and opinions are synonymous (they aren't).

Now, it may be the case that it all adds up to nothing at all but if *I* were either a Muslim or Hispanic I would probably have one eye on the exits at this point. Any one of those items taken in isolation would be disconcerting, all of them taken together and then considered in the light that one major party espouses ALL of the above and it doesn't look good.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by GoddessJess

I love how I can sit here and read so many different posts written so many different way and a lot of them say the same thing. Politics is a twisted game. I cant remember a single time when I remember hearing the truth...the first time around...It's always Oh I diddnt do it then...oh yea I did! It cracks me up. As far as republicans and democrats and liberals and the tea party (wich just the name cracks me up) they all have one common goal and thats their own agendas!

Okay so what do you replace politics with? It's all well and good to say "all politicians are after their own agenda" or "politics is a twisted game" but it is quite another thing altogether to suggest something to replace politics. So what's your suggestion or is the point not to think about a better way of doing things but to just blast it all as sucking?

Gay rights, abortion, the markets, the economy these are all touchy subjects

Okay and what are your suggestions?

, I think they just try to find the touchiest of them all, wich seems to be sexting latly, find the biggest affected crowd and then side with them! It's like a sick cat and mouse game...under what egg will the attention fall today?
Prisions are overcrowded, hell yes they are...rehab services?? I have known a lot of people that went to rehab and well they diddnt turn out so great!

I have known people who went to prison and that didn't work out so great either. I can offer you any number of examples where people went to prison and were put to death and then, later on, it was discovered that the person was innocent. How well did THAT work out?

My idea..in all my infinite wisdom...PUT THEM TO WORK!
give them tents and stick them someplace where there is work to be done! build something, clear something hell for once in your life do something that the tax payers are paying for anyways!

Does that include the white collar criminals who, for instance, crash the economy 100 million dollars a year still wasn't enough money?

I love that guy in AZ that stuck them all in pink and made them work for a living!

Well, if you love that sheriff then you would be positively giddy with glee over the conditions in Soviet gulags. Say what you will about the Soviet Union, they knew how to build a prison. Given your two statements on crime and criminals, you would've loved it. A non-trivial portion (up to half by some accounts) of prisoners never even saw a trial, they were arrested, put on a train to Siberia and into the gulag they went. None of that messy mucking about with rights of the accused, trial by jury, evidence, reasonable doubt--the Soviets didn't have any truck with that, no ma'am. If you were going to go to prison, you were going to go to prison and unless you were the child of a Politburo member any trial you got was fair only in the sense that anyone else who *also* wasn't an elite would have much the same fate as you. Once in the gulags the most common causes of death were disease, starvation and being worked, quite literally, to death. That sound about the way you think it should be done.

Put them in tents in Arizona, make them work hard without adequate food, water or sanitation and let nature take its course. Sound about what you're envisioning?

So based upon your love of Mr. Arpaio, I can surmise what kind of state you would like. You do realize, though, that any state that sustains the kind of prison system you describe either isn't a constitutional republic or is in the process of not being one any longer? It is like empire, you can have an empire or you can have a republic but you can't have both. Likewise, you can have an republic or you can have a prison system that Stalin would be proud of but you can't have a gulag system AND remain a republic. The logic here is straightforward. So let's say that we get the kind of prison you and Mr. Arpaio think is appropriate. Let us also say that there are people, yours truly included, who might think that such a legal system was uncomfortably close to the Soviet one and had some strong words for it. Is it beyond imagination that some sheriff might decide to pick up some protestors as they leave? Might it be the case that, since we've thrown out all the legal protections given the accused because they frustrate you, that they lock these people up on trumped-up charges? Might it be possible that others will protest the arrest of these political prisoners? How many times do you think it takes before people get the message "don't speak up about the legal system or else the cops will come get you"?

Starting to sound familiar? I'm not going to pull a Godwin violation and say that what you are describing sounds uncomfortably like Nazism because it doesn't. I AM going to say that what you are describing sounds uncomfortably like the kinds of things that totalitarian states do. Is that what you want, a non-democratic state? Given your statement about politics, perhaps you do. Say what you will about totalitarian states, the politics are fairly straightforward and easy to understand--support the dictates of the Leader or else.

Cheers
Aj

[apretty]

Originally Posted by GoddessJess

I love that guy in AZ that stuck them all in pink and made them work for a living!
I'm just sayin!

GoddessJess:

That "guy" in Arizona makes women give birth shackled to a hospital bed. His prisoners have died of the heat exposure, after requesting shade or water or after collapsing and being ignored. He supports racial profiling and his own people were recently caught smuggling drugs and people for Mexican drug cartel. If you care about women, or people at all--You'll educate yourself and rethink your support of Joe Arpaio.

Much more information found by googling phoenix new times sheriff joe (the new times is the local indie paper).

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by apretty

GoddessJess:

That "guy" in Arizona makes women give birth shackled to a hospital bed. His prisoners have died of the heat exposure, after requesting shade or water or after collapsing and being ignored. He supports racial profiling and his own people were recently caught smuggling drugs and people for Mexican drug cartel. If you care about women, or people at all--You'll educate yourself and rethink your support of Joe Arpaio.

Much more information found by googling phoenix new times sheriff joe (the new times is the local indie paper).

Having a sheriff like Arpaio seems like a fantastic idea--right up to the point where it actually exists. I understand the emotional catharsis of the sentiment "yeah! screw those criminals! They all deserve it, dying of heat exhaustion is too good for 'em!" Yet, that's all it is good for--emotional catharsis. From the moment I heard of Arpaio I knew he would become a folk hero because, as a nation, we are in love with bully figures. All Arpaio is is a bully with a badge and license to use deadly force. I wonder how many people who look at Arpaio as a hero would like to spend time in a Soviet-era gulag. I ask because what Arpaio is doing is constrained ONLY by the Constitution--imagine, if you will, what this man would do if there weren't that messy, messy, document standing in the way of 'good ol' fashioned brutality'.

I think that these types of characters are appealing if one cannot imagine oneself being on the business end of their nightstick. As a black woman I *can* imagine what would happen to me in Arpaio's district. One of his deputies might decide that I don't 'look' American enough and haul me in. I might be locked up and, if some Americans had their way, that would be all she wrote for me. No trial, if the cops pulled me over then I must've done *something*. No chance to defend myself--that's just a waste of time and money. No evidence need be presented--the cop said I did X so I must have done it. And if it turns out that they got the wrong woman but I've already died while wearing one of Arpaio's pink jumpsuits well, people are just so many eggs that one might have to break in order to make omelets.

Utopians--whether they are of the left or the right--create truly terrifying scenarios whether they realize it or not. The people who admire Arpaio and wish that our criminal justice system were informed by his methods are utopians.

Cheers
Aj