What does the "B-F Dynamic" mean to you?

[imperfect_cupcake]

what does the bf dynamic mean to me? kind of a wierd question to answer as it's kinda like me answering what being a lesbian means to me.

personally I don't see it as anything but a sexuality. There isn't any roles in my relationships so I can't speak about that. My partner does what she enjoys and is good at, I do the same, just like any other relationship. She doesn't hold doors for me or take off her hat or anything along those lines. She spoils me in the way I find important, but I would expect every good relationship no matter what the people are in to do that.

I wouldn't be able to answer that because I'm not really very traditional in many ways in our relationship. so, the dynamic is not, for me, who opens doors, who pays the bill, who gets me a beer, who carries the bags - she's not my dogsbody. she does these things on many occations (save the door opening) but no more than I see other lesbian couples doing these things for each other who aren't butch-femme.

so, to me, it's purely about sex.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Strappie

I'm trying to write something and I'm not a writer as most of you all know. *smirk* So I thought what better place is there?

I am curious, does this mean that whatever we write here you will be using for whatever it is you are trying to write? I am not sure if this is what you mean so I am asking for clarification.

FYI, to diminish this dynamic to who opens doors makes my heart ache.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

I am curious, does this mean that whatever we write here you will be using for whatever it is you are trying to write? I am not sure if this is what you mean so I am asking for clarification.

FYI, to diminish this dynamic to who opens doors makes my heart ache.

who did that? ??

[Strappie]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

I am curious, does this mean that whatever we write here you will be using for whatever it is you are trying to write? I am not sure if this is what you mean so I am asking for clarification.

FYI, to diminish this dynamic to who opens doors makes my heart ache.

Not at all UofMfan... I mostly just want to know how you all explain the dynamic.

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

what does the bf dynamic mean to me? kind of a wierd question to answer as it's kinda like me answering what being a lesbian means to me.

personally I don't see it as anything but a sexuality. There isn't any roles in my relationships so I can't speak about that. My partner does what she enjoys and is good at, I do the same, just like any other relationship. She doesn't hold doors for me or take off her hat or anything along those lines. She spoils me in the way I find important, but I would expect every good relationship no matter what the people are in to do that.

I wouldn't be able to answer that because I'm not really very traditional in many ways in our relationship. so, the dynamic is not, for me, who opens doors, who pays the bill, who gets me a beer, who carries the bags - she's not my dogsbody. she does these things on many occations (save the door opening) but no more than I see other lesbian couples doing these things for each other who aren't butch-femme.

so, to me, it's purely about sex.

I have to agree with this. I am who I am, femme is a part of that. I try to be the best me I can be, not the best femme I can be. We as a couple, work together based on what we are good at. We don't assign rolls based on who is butch and who is femme.

I get the concept of the B-F dance
but everyone has to figure out what that means to them.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

...I wouldn't be able to answer that because I'm not really very traditional in many ways in our relationship. so, the dynamic is not, for me, who opens doors, who pays the bill, who gets me a beer, who carries the bags - she's not my dogsbody. she does these things on many occations (save the door opening) but no more than I see other lesbian couples doing these things for each other who aren't butch-femme.

so, to me, it's purely about sex.

You see, this is the same as trying to say that I am butch because my hair is short and I wear masculine clothes. The dynamic, as well as my gender identity run much deeper than that. This is of course, my opinion.

[SuperFemme]

Oddly, I thought HB was saying the same thing as you UofM...

Of course I guess it is open to self interpretation. I think the one point we can all agree on is that the B/F dynamic works in our lives in very individualized ways. Snowflakes. No two are alike. It is always snowing on the Planet, no?

[NJFemmie]

Yeah, so I'm confused because I too thought that was what honeybarbara was trying to impart ... that those particular things don't define the dynamic for her - (but then again, who's to say it doesn't for someone else...)

Interpretation is a slippery little sucker.

[LieslKate]

A lil bit of Lesbian Herstory...

This first ethnography on the development of working-class lesbian communities from the 1930s to the 1960s focuses on a Buffalo, New York, lesbian community. Unlike gay men, gay women, by dressing the way they wanted, going to bars regularly, being financially independent from their families of origin and from men, and by boldly seeking out the company of other women like themselves, unwittingly created a community of their own. The authors argue that because the women in the community gave one another the support necessary to respond aggressively and "with pride" when facing an often disapproving and hostile society, they effectively built the real foundation of the gay and lesbian liberation movement. The oral histories of 45 women tell of victimization by their families, straight men, and one another but also recount the joys these women experienced by allowing themselves to be who they really were. Conducted over a 13-year period, these interviews contribute a massive amount of original research to the anthropology of American culture as well as to lesbian history. For academic libraries and women's studies collections.
- Patricia Sarles, Brooklyn P.L. , New York
Copyright 1993 Reed Business Information, Inc.

". . . the first comprehensive account of a working-class lesbian community. . .." -- Ms. Magazine

"This should be seen as a groundbreaking book, a fascinating look at the pre-political support systems, of friendship groups extended to include ex-lovers' families and children that became one of the foundation blocks for building the gay/lesbian communities of our day." -- San Francisco Review of Books

At a time when many lesbian and gay leaders are urging assimilation and moderation, Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold recovers a neglected chapter of lesbian and gay history and reminds us of the enduring importance of outlaw roots. -- San Francisco Chronicle-Examiner

Conducted over a 13-year period, these interviews contribute a massive amount of original research to the anthology of American culture as well as to lesbian history. -- Library Journal

The book soars on the plain, yet eloquent voices of the women. . . -- Boston Globe

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold honors all of us; Liz Kennedy and Madeline Davis have produced a work that opens up the heart and mind. Their book breaks new ground in womens history, Lesbian history, and the history of desire as a lived force in a community under seige. Most of all, they have put back at the center a group of women, who without money or traditional power, fought for and won a public place where women queers could celebrate their love. -- Joan Nestle, Co-founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives and Editor of The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader

While some of this book is a juicy account of who did what to whom, the heart of Boots of Leather lies in its careful, insightful evaluation of the development of the Buffalo lesbian community through its bars. -- Lambda Book Report

This pioneering history of a working-class lesbian community is doubly marked by its scholarly care and its human compassion. Kennedy and Davis have adhered to the most scrupulous standards of serious historical work, yet at the same time have treated the subjects of their scrutiny with profound delicacy and respect. Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold is one of the finest works yet to emerge in the burgeoning field of gay and lesbian studies. -- Martin Duberman, Distinguished Professor of History, CUNY Graduate `chool, and Director of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies

Rarely does a book break entirely new ground, but this is surely one that does. With love, passion, and empathy, Kennedy and Davis bring to life the history of a working-class lesbian community. A complex, fascinating, and evocative world, it has much to tell us about gender, sexuality, class, and urban life. Above all, this is a story about the triumph of the human spirit over horrible adversity. The voices of these women sing on every page. -- John DEmilio, University of North Carolina at Greensboro

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold incorporates both academic values of sound scholarship and the lesbian communitys need for roots and for affirmation of our identity as woman-loving women. -- The Empty Chest

...Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy's and Madeline D. Davis' history of the lesbian working-class cummunity in Buffalo. Drawing on oral history as well as records, the authors have represented a microcosmic study of a fascinating and vital community. The importance of class and race and the techniques of survival in the face of oppression marked the historical experience of these women. Kennedy and Davis have written about the specific local development of a consciousness of a kind that is required for a liberation movement and that they show existed before Stonewall in Buffalo. -- The Los Angeles Times

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold honors all of us; Liz Kennedy and Madeline Davis have produced a work that opens up the heart and mind. Their book breaks new ground in women's history, Lesbian history, and the history of desire as a lived force in a community under seige. Most of all, they have put back at the center a group of women, who without money or traditional power, fought for and won a public place where women queers could celebrate their love. -- Joan Nestle, Co-founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives and Editor of The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader

While some of this book is a juicy account of who did what to whom, the heart of Boots of Leather lies in its careful, insightful evaluation of the development of the Buffalo lesbian community through its bars. -- Lambda Book Report

This pioneering history of a working-class lesbian community is doubly marked by its scholarly care and its human compassion. Kennedy and Davis have adhered to the most scrupulous standards of serious historical work, yet at the same time have treated the subjects of their scrutiny with profound delicacy and respect. Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold is one of the finest works yet to emerge in the burgeoning field of gay and lesbian studies. -- Martin Duberman, Distinguished Professor of History, CUNY Graduate `chool, and Director of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies

This very first community study of lesbians will radically advance the state of knowledge in gay and lesbian studies. Nuanced, lovingly researched and provocative, both the description and the argument are food for thinkingpeople. -- Esther Newton, State University of New York at Purchase and author of Cherry Grove, Fire Island: Sixty Years in America's First Gay and Lesbian Town

Until you know where you came from how can you know where you are going...

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold :
Publisher: Penguin (Non-Classics) (March 1, 1994)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0140235507
ISBN-13: 978-0140235500

Other reading...
Radical History Review: Volume 63 (v. 63) Forging Gay Identities: Organizing Sexuality in San Francisco, 1950-1994 by Elizabeth A. Armstrong
Queer Fictions of the Past: History, Culture, and Difference (Cambridge Cultural Social Studies) by Scott Bravmann
Feminism, Sexuality, and Politics: Essays by Estelle B. Freedman (Gender and American Culture) by Estelle B. Freedman
Female Masculinity by Judith Halberstam

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

You see, this is the same as trying to say that I am butch because my hair is short and I wear masculine clothes. The dynamic, as well as my gender identity run much deeper than that. This is of course, my opinion.

Not how I took her post. The point is to move away from steriotyping folks.
Just cause of how you dress or do your hair has not a lot to do with how you ID. Have you ever stopped to notice how many straight women wear their hair very short? Jeans and tee shirts are worn by all kinds of people.

who opens doors isn't a butch or femme thing.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by amiyesiam

Not how I took her post. The point is to move away from steriotyping folks.
Just cause of how you dress or do your hair has not a lot to do with how you ID. Have you ever stopped to notice how many straight women wear their hair very short? Jeans and tee shirts are worn by all kinds of people.

who opens doors isn't a butch or femme thing.

thanks yes, that's what I ment. I see many people not into butch-femme dynamic opening doors, paying for meals, cleaning the house etc. Things that are often touted as a "butch-femme dynamic" (aka traditional 50's middle america stuff. That's not judgement by the way for those who dig it). That's not it for me *because* my partner and I don't do gender division of things. Butches take out the trash/femmes wash the dishes. That kind of thing. Nor is it "butch manners" because she doesn't have any. She spoils me, but not in any way that I don't see other couples doing for each other in non-butch-femme ID'd couples.

SO I can't say, for me, that butch-femme dynamic is about anything else but sex.

For someone else, that may be absurd. But since I can't point at my partner and say "oh it's cause she treats me with such care and she's such a gentleman..." cause, y'know, butch-femme doesn't have the corner on that. i've met a ton of non ID's and femmes I enjoy being spoiled and treated sweetly by in a... way that I used to think only butches did.

So I can't nail it to anything but the brass knobs, for me.