Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Heart]

Kobi - The exclusion of butches and femmes by some (not all) lesbian feminists was/is based upon un-examined and internalized misogyny and homophobia.

You said: Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Butches and femmes ARE women and lesbians.

That is my answer to each of your points above. There is the mistaken idea that butch/femme are not female/lesbian identities -- and therefore lesbian-feminists must guard against them. But they ARE, always have been, and they always will be female and lesbian identities. This is exactly the point that is being made by butches and femmes here in this thread and elsewhere in these broader discussions.

You cannot claim or appropriate butch/femme from women and lesbians.

I understand your points, and the threats that lesbian-feminists faced politically and socially were very real. Some of what they did was visionary and world-changing, some of it short-sighted or steeped in bais. Many lesbian-feminist circles were racist and did not include the voices, visions, or needs of women of color. Many were also opposed to leather dykes and queer women in kink communities. Point being - they had their limitations - as do all movements.

Heart

[Toughy]

Butches (and femmes) ARE women and lesbians.

It should be telling to anyone that if Jack, Bully and myself felt unheard and left the steering committe that something is truly wrong with the picture. My beef had to do with including 'trans' as a target audience rather than an ally. I knew then that butch lesbian women were going to be shoved aside and that masculinity and male would be the end focus.

I can't even finish reading Joe's statements because my head will explode. They really need to change the name to 'Masculine of Center Voices' because to call it 'Butch Voices' is an outright lie.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

Kobi - The exclusion of butches and femmes by some (not all) lesbian feminists was/is based upon un-examined and internalized misogyny and homophobia.

You said: Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Butches and femmes ARE women and lesbians.

That is my answer to each of your points above. There is the mistaken idea that butch/femme are not female/lesbian identities -- and therefore lesbian-feminists must guard against them. But they ARE, always have been, and they always will be female and lesbian identities. This is exactly the point that is being made by butches and femmes here in this thread and elsewhere in these broader discussions.

You cannot claim or appropriate butch/femme from women and lesbians.

I understand your points, and the threats that lesbian-feminists faced politically and socially were very real. Some of what they did was visionary and world-changing, some of it short-sighted or steeped in bais. Many lesbian-feminist circles were racist and did not include the voices, visions, or needs of women of color. Many were also opposed to leather dykes and queer women in kink communities. Point being - they had their limitations - as do all movements.

Heart

Heart,

Thank you.

My best recollection is what occured 40 years ago in my own, isolated corner of the world. I do remember complexities with male id's and those engaged in what was perceived as traditional male/female dynamics.

Must factor in your thoughts to everything else floating around my head.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Heart,

those engaged in what was perceived as traditional male/female dynamics.

Perceived being the operative word. Bias and assumptions about the "traditional roles" embodied in butch-femme negated the subversive and very queer nature of butch-femme relationships. An opportunity to unite diverse queer woman was thus lost, and, I believe may have even provoked some of the divisions we see now between transmale and queer women's communities.

This is not to throw blame upon lesbian-feminists of the 1970s alone. There's enough accountability to go around. I maintain that co-opting male privilege, (as in privileging male/trans/masculine voices over women's voices), and unexamined misogyny and sexism in transmale communities also plays a part in current divisions.

Heart

[Martina]

i am not butch. i do not know what has been happening in the Butch Voices organization or beyond it re their mission statement other than the few things i have seen here and on Facebook.

i am not going to comment on it.

i may be beating a dead horse here, but i am still furious with the statements about femme identity. Those should not be allowed to stand. i am not commenting on the Butch Voices issues because in many ways it's not my fight and i have confidence in the butches for whom it is.

But femme ID is mine to claim, and i damn sure want no one, surely not someone NOT femme, to tell me OVER and OVER how easy MY struggle is.

i mean WTF????!!!!!!!!!

It feels like misogyny to have that stand.

[Dominique]

No doubt, it was said someplace....just a couple more things to splinter our community. I thought I was being overly sensitive to exactly what Martina stated. Consequently, I refrained from an explanatory treatise.

Perhaps I am too passionate to express in writing when I am irked.

[Heart]

Martina - several femmes, myself included did not "let it stand." we responded and refuted. I understand your fury. What do you need?

Also, I don't see such a division between butches and femmes re the BV conflicts. Because it is, in many ways, a queer women's issue, and I am a queer woman.

Heart

[tapu]

Originally Posted by June

Butch, Lesbian and Feminist are tenets of our community language and shared culture. When did they become "Bad" words? Why?

That line is signature-worthy.

[Martina]

Thanks Heart and Yellowband. i kind wish it had been removed. But i didn't even report it. i just wanted to see some of my fury reflected here too. Sigh. Man, that upset me. Wow.

Re BV, partly i just know so little about it.

[tapu]

Taking my life in my own hands, I would just like to say:

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh?

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by tapu

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh?

Is this where I get to express my feelings of feeling invisable?

What do you have in mind?

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by tapu

Taking my life in my own hands, I would just like to say:

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh?

I'm not much of a leaper....but I do a mean cannonball in the pool.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I'm not much of a leaper....but I do a mean cannonball in the pool.

Here come the cannonballing lesbians? Heck, maybe that's even better, Ducky!