Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

tapu · 07-30-2011, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christie0918

I have been following the conversation regarding BV, female vs. male (feminine vs. masculine) leadership, the feelings of erasure and invalidation of female ID'd butches and non qualified butches (for those who just claim "butch") and I just have to say that it feels really, really negating to have the frivilious comments interjected as the ones I have quoted here.

Its obvious that this is a conversation that isn't easy or not close to folks' hearts. Why is this shit necessary?

It seems very immature and demeaning to me. If I can't add to the conversation at hand, I generally just read. Doesn't mean I am not interested if I don't participate nor does it mean that its not important. Perhaps I am too busy to be able to take the time to engage and stay engaged. Perhaps I need time to reflect on others' posts and get my own in order.

What really silences me is when I am moving right along, reading the conversation and then WHAM! It really distracts and deflects. Is that the purpose?

Would it happen in other forums such as the Femme, Butch or Trans zones? I can't help but believe it would cause quite the ruckus and while I can't recall a specific instance, I feel almost certain it has happened in those zones.

Why can't we have the important conversations without the attempts at levity? Is it too uncomfortable?

My apologies for the rant. I watched it happen a couple of days ago and didn't say anything for lack of time, but today, it just really crawled all over me. Perhaps others don't share my view and that's really ok.

I really hope the conversations can continue. They are important.

Christie

My posts are fairly short. You can just skip them.

Dominique · 07-30-2011, 06:36 PM

when I finally mustered up enough courage to speak, I became even more invisable.....and I even said that didn't I?

BullDog · 07-30-2011, 06:53 PM

Butch is just not good enough for an organization called Butch Voices.

Even today Joe is on Facebook talking about butch being a term that has been used against people or something that some never identified with and basically that it's limiting.

Well for those who don't identify with the word butch, wouldn't they either be going to a Butch Conference as an ally or not even care about such a thing?

For me, yes some have attempted to use butch in a derisive manner against me, as well as dyke. If any word has been hurled at me in a derisive manner it has been dyke. Guess what I am a proud butch dyke. Those words both separately and in combination are powerful for me. I respect those who don't use the terms for themselves, but I personally do not need to be protected or have some supposed new language invented to protect me (aka Masculine of Center) with words that have no personal meaning for me.

I live my life as a butch every day. I would think an organization called Butch Voices would be relevant to me in addition to other types of butches.

If they want to have an organization that serves a broader or different gender spectrum than butch, why don't they change their name? You know why I don't think they will? It goes back to a few things that Jack and June said. Butch is more recognizable, Butch Voices is their "brand." So they are using the term Butch to build a wider audience because it's more recognizable but their organization is not really centered around Butch. It really does tick me off.

Oh and to suggest the reason people have left is because the work is too hard or there are personality conflicts is complete bullshit. As Jack said it's dismissive and erasing. Jack, Toughy, myself and a few others left for very similar reasons in 2008-09 as Jeanne Cordova, Sasha Goldberg and others did in 2011. We aren't being listened to. They are building their brand at our expense.

You know I do think they are all about diversity and inclusion. However in their branding process they are walking over the backs and erasing a large segment of butches who live their lives every day as butches- every day lives where being visibly lesbian/queer masculine females and women have real life consequences. We aren't somewhere out in gender theory land looking for slogans and brands to protect ourselves or make ourselves into something that we are not. We are living our lives- butch is real life, not gender theory.

tapu · 07-30-2011, 07:00 PM

Serious question here, and whatever the answer is fine with me. I just want to understand.

Is it clear to most everyone from the thread title and the OP that this is intended to be a serious discussion about "Butch Voices"?

If so, what is its relationship to the thread in a different forum that is called "Butch Voices" or some variation on that?

I really don't want to break the rules of how to post, whatever those rules are. Or whoever's.

Dominique · 07-30-2011, 07:06 PM

No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there

dixie · 07-30-2011, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow band

No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there

Perhaps I'm confused.

So....when someone I will (suspect) call an "ally" starts a thread to give us a voice (i.e. another place to hang out and make ourselves known), it's a conflict of interest? To me that sounds as though you are implying that our space should be ours and ours alone, without allowing supporters/allies/significant others/etc who do not identify as lesbian to have any part. Personally, if it is a lesbian space I think lesbian should be the focus but those supportive of lesbians should be allowed as well. (Which also happens to be my opinion of BV, although substitute "butch" for "lesbian" in my last sentence.)

Then again, perhaps it was your yawning (which was just as immature in my opinion as other comments that have been called out) that threw me off a little.

Liam · 07-30-2011, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tapu

Serious question here, and whatever the answer is fine with me. I just want to understand.

Is it clear to most everyone from the thread title and the OP that this is intended to be a serious discussion about "Butch Voices"?

If so, what is its relationship to the thread in a different forum that is called "Butch Voices" or some variation on that?

I really don't want to break the rules of how to post, whatever those rules are. Or whoever's.

As the OP, I had no attachment to what was discussed in this thread, when I created it. New members complained they were having difficulty seeing the lesbians in our community. The conversation has meandered here and there, and more than likely will continue to do so. At present, a serious discussion about Butch Voices seems to be on the table. There have been other threads created to specifically discuss Butch Voices, so currently the relationship this thread has with them is the same topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow band

No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there

Yellow Band, I created this thread, I'm not interested in posting in it at all, although I do enjoy reading it from time to time. If folks would quit asking questions of the OP—me, I wouldn't have to. I would have explained this to you via private message, but apparently you do not receive private messages.

tapu · 07-30-2011, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam

At present, a serious discussion about Butch Voices seems to be on the table. There have been other threads created to specifically discuss Butch Voices, so currently the relationship this thread has with them is the same topic.

Okay, so while Butch Voices is the topic, no off-hand remarks about leaping lesbians should be made. No unrelated banter exchanged.

I'm not necessarily asking you, Liam. I'm checking in on what I'm hearing.

Liam · 07-30-2011, 07:35 PM

For the record, once upon a time, I identified as a lesbian—I was one proud dyke, and one proud butch.

07-30-2011, 06:36 PM	#2
Dominique Member How Do You Identify?: Female/Lesbian/half the athlete I used to be Preferred Pronoun?: she/her Relationship Status: Dates Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: So proud to be a Pittsburgher Posts: 1,484 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,645 Thanked 3,730 Times in 1,166 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	when I finally mustered up enough courage to speak, I became even more invisable.....and I even said that didn't I? __________________ As long as there was coffee in the world, how bad could things be??

07-30-2011, 06:53 PM	#3
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,640 Times in 4,463 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	Butch is just not good enough for an organization called Butch Voices. Even today Joe is on Facebook talking about butch being a term that has been used against people or something that some never identified with and basically that it's limiting. Well for those who don't identify with the word butch, wouldn't they either be going to a Butch Conference as an ally or not even care about such a thing? For me, yes some have attempted to use butch in a derisive manner against me, as well as dyke. If any word has been hurled at me in a derisive manner it has been dyke. Guess what I am a proud butch dyke. Those words both separately and in combination are powerful for me. I respect those who don't use the terms for themselves, but I personally do not need to be protected or have some supposed new language invented to protect me (aka Masculine of Center) with words that have no personal meaning for me. I live my life as a butch every day. I would think an organization called Butch Voices would be relevant to me in addition to other types of butches. If they want to have an organization that serves a broader or different gender spectrum than butch, why don't they change their name? You know why I don't think they will? It goes back to a few things that Jack and June said. Butch is more recognizable, Butch Voices is their "brand." So they are using the term Butch to build a wider audience because it's more recognizable but their organization is not really centered around Butch. It really does tick me off. Oh and to suggest the reason people have left is because the work is too hard or there are personality conflicts is complete bullshit. As Jack said it's dismissive and erasing. Jack, Toughy, myself and a few others left for very similar reasons in 2008-09 as Jeanne Cordova, Sasha Goldberg and others did in 2011. We aren't being listened to. They are building their brand at our expense. You know I do think they are all about diversity and inclusion. However in their branding process they are walking over the backs and erasing a large segment of butches who live their lives every day as butches- every day lives where being visibly lesbian/queer masculine females and women have real life consequences. We aren't somewhere out in gender theory land looking for slogans and brands to protect ourselves or make ourselves into something that we are not. We are living our lives- butch is real life, not gender theory. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

07-30-2011, 07:00 PM	#4
tapu Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Understated butch. Preferred Pronoun?: I Relationship Status: Party of One Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Maine Posts: 1,654 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,324 Thanked 3,115 Times in 1,103 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	Serious question here, and whatever the answer is fine with me. I just want to understand. Is it clear to most everyone from the thread title and the OP that this is intended to be a serious discussion about "Butch Voices"? If so, what is its relationship to the thread in a different forum that is called "Butch Voices" or some variation on that? I really don't want to break the rules of how to post, whatever those rules are. Or whoever's. __________________ Really? That's not funny to you?

07-30-2011, 07:06 PM	#5
Dominique Member How Do You Identify?: Female/Lesbian/half the athlete I used to be Preferred Pronoun?: she/her Relationship Status: Dates Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: So proud to be a Pittsburgher Posts: 1,484 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,645 Thanked 3,730 Times in 1,166 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there __________________ As long as there was coffee in the world, how bad could things be??

07-30-2011, 07:35 PM	#9
Liam Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Guy Preferred Pronoun?: He, Him, His Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The Evergreen State Posts: 2,269 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 14,865 Thanked 6,875 Times in 1,860 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	For the record, once upon a time, I identified as a lesbian—I was one proud dyke, and one proud butch. __________________ <3 Love is weird.