Heaven and Hell. What do you think?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Ryobi

How do you view Heaven and Hell? How does it apply to your daily life?

I don't believe in either heaven or hell nor do I believe in any form of an afterlife. In fact, I think of heaven, hell and an afterlife as quite beside the point and a distraction to boot. I'll try to explain.

Both my parents are dead now. My father died 11 years ago, my mother died almost three years ago. While it could certainly be comforting if I believed that they still existed in some sweet by-and-by that would also allow me the luxury to believe that one day we'll see one another (provided, if you go in for Christian theology, I pick the right religion) again. It is a far more difficult challenge to accept that my parents are gone and that anything left unsaid is forever left unsaid. Holding onto the idea of a heaven where one day I'll be reunited with my parents, my grandmother and the childhood dog keeps me from doing the hard work of letting go.

Belief in a hell is similar in its effects but as opposed to providing the illusion that one day I'll be reunited with those I love, it provides conceit that one day all those who have gotten over in this life will 'get what's coming to them' in the afterlife. While there are times I would very much like to think that there's a place where Pat Robertson will know, in a full and complete measure, the true meaning of agony such a belief relieves me of the responsibility to do anything about injustice now. If I strive for justice and I fail, instead of picking myself up and trying again I can always just write it off with the idea that the cosmic books will get balanced in hell.

Lastly, I think that the idea of an afterlife encourages us to not fully live and appreciate our lives now. There is something very focusing about being in my early forties and realizing that at this point, I'm probably closer to the end of my life than the beginning of it. It means that whatever I'm going to get right I had better do so sooner rather than later because there are no second acts. Life is one act, one take, done in front of a live studio audience with no commercial breaks. Belief in an afterlife gives you multiple takes, multiple acts and so where's the pressure to get it right now?

One last thing about heaven and hell. While it may make folks uncomfortable to have this pointed out, largely heaven and hell are seen as reward or punishment. Do the right things (believe the right religion) and you go to heaven. Do the wrong things (believe the wrong religion) and you go to hell. To me, moral or ethical behavior, in order to truly be moral must be motivated solely for its own sake. If I am moral only because I want rewards in the sweet by-and-by I may not do a great deal of harm but I am not doing so for the right reasons.

Cheers
Aj

[The_Lady_Snow]

I enter the kingdom of heaven each time I swing a flogger, use a needle, a knife, my hands or I kick my boy down to the ground.. I am there in all its glory and warmth..

I passed through hell for a short visit, when I lived with my mother, and was married to Rod..

All that other hoovy groovy churchy stuff..

eh..

whatever...

[MsDemeanor]

What Aj said.

[Boots13]

On some innate level I don't want to be an amoeba just bumping along in my petri dish...my mind strays to thoughts of 'surely there must be more' !

I revolve my suspicious disposition from "show me the money" to "sold" because of my incremental brushes with the ultimate price...Is hell a near drowning, and heaven the hand of something greater that pops me out of it? Is hell looking down the business end of a shotgun and heaven found in the fact that it didn't go off? Is heaven found sitting on the top of the world surrounded by ...nothing? Whereby Hell would be a life of sitting on a couch surrounded by infomercials...

C'mon, the proof, give me proof ! Is hell a BBQ?

And when the shit hits the fan and I'm half a breath away from oblivion I need to know that while I am struggling, fighting, thinking, reacting clawing my way to survival, I can also call out from the depths of that immediate hell and hope the hand of something greater is poised to dispatch a little mercy....I want Heaven to be funky, vast, exploding
with life, light, knowledge, love and painless...make it painless.

And why do I think Heaven is inexplicably tied to Divine Intervention?

I want heaven to be directly connected to the hand of something greater than I. That "recovering Catholic" part of me needs to believe in that small detail. But NOT for the reasons of doing good, or the threat of molten
punishment, but more so wanting to know that the people and pets that I love, who have passed before me, are in a kinder, pain free place.

And after all that I'm where I usually end up after thinking about it...I'm less inclined to be guided by thoughts of Heaven or Hell and more apt to live my days contemplating Hope, Divine Intervention, Karma, blessings, Love and Right Action.

Compassion is extraordinary. The rest is details...

[Apocalipstic]

I don't per se believe in Hell and maybe not even Heaven.

But there are some lovely posts and views of what it might be like here.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Ryobi

Thanks for sharing.

Do you think one can change their Heaven or Hell? Maybe visit, instead of living in it?

I think so. As we, as individuals, change and evolve, so do the things that we find pleasant or painful or real or unreal.

Some folks have made some really interesting points. While not agreeing wholeheartedly with AJ's post, I see something in it that I can use for myself. The last paragraph, especially.

The same thing with Snow's post. I'll never be the position of a Domme and be swinging that flogger, but I SEE it. I see where her joy and her Heaven could exist in that moment, just as I can SEE that AJ finds something else that I cannot but it is still valid and relevant.

I have been brought up to see Heaven and Hell as more of a final destination than a transitory, passing through kind of thing but I've thought about this quite a bit recently and, after reading the thoughts and feelings of some others, I think that it could be both.

I've been exposed to a multitude of religions and faiths and I've taken something away from each one, even if it's only "I don't want to do THAT again!". Perhaps that exposure allows me to be more fluid in my thoughts on topics like this. I like tangible stuff, but sometimes, you just have to "know" things without "proof" and the more options there are, the more I like it.

Our beliefs are all we really have in this life. Our belief in an afterlife (or none). Our belief in right and wrong (or not). Our belief that we are loved (or not). Our belief that our good deeds will be rewarded (or not). It's our beliefs that get us through tough times (which may or may not be seen as Hell). Our beliefs allow us to live our lives in the manner we prefer. When we live against the grain of ourselves, so to speak, then that creates discontent within ourselves. It really makes no matter what our beliefs are. It's all about us following our beliefs.

I'm having a really difficult time saying exactly what I want to say in this last paragraph. There's a message in there somewhere but right now my noggin is a bit slushy and my thoughts are coming at me like voices in the dark and then they're gone before I can get them on the screen. So, I'll throw this up there and come back when I'm feeling more clarity.

[SassyLeo]

My mother had been involved in “New Thought” for many years and eventually I became part of the church she co-founded about 12 years ago. It was a wonderful 5 years! The congregation is led by an African American Lesbian minister and her life-partner, also African American, led the music ministry. They were both raised in very fundamental traditional “black churches”. I was very involved- taking classes, participating in groups and the best part, for me, being part of the Gospel choir. Mind you, the church was incredibly progressive and embodied belief systems from all over the world. I loved singing traditional music, with a slight twist of new/more inclusive words and energy. Very woo-woo

Anyway, a number of years ago, I was having a discussion with a colleague, I’ll call her Lisa. Lisa had recently delved back into her faith and had begun attending a Lutheran church with her husband and little girl. She was really enjoying it…and so we would share stories and talk about the differences in our beliefs, but also what we shared. Although I think she liked much of the traditional belief systems, she was somewhat liberal. Meaning, she was not homophobic. And in fact, very open.

Lisa was telling me about how she and several other women from the church had a get together with the minister’s wife at her house. They were all talking about heaven and hell. Lisa was asking her questions and one in particular she really struggled with.

The wife was telling her that they believe that in order to go to heaven, you must believe in Jesus/God/be a Christian/follow the Christian “way”. And if you don’t, you will go to hell.

So the conversation went like this:

Lisa: “What about my friends and family who aren’t an active Christians or I’m not sure what they believe…they are all going to hell?”

The wife: “Well, that is what we believe. We believe that it is best to live as Christians”

Lisa: “So everyone I know who isn’t a Christian or isn’t a practicing Christian, they are all going to hell?”

The wife: “Well, yes…”

Lisa: “Well that is hard for me to hear and understand. These are people I love and just because they don’t believe as I do, they go to hell? What if they are Jewish? It just doesn’t make sense to me”

And so she came back to work on Monday and was really struggling with how to reconcile her feelings. I told her that because I don’t believe in heaven and hell, I could not speak to her specific situation, but encouraged her to follow her heart.

This still sticks with me. My belief is that God (Spirit, Goddess…) does not discriminate and is completely inclusive of all walks of life.

When I die, they can take all the parts they need to save people and then cremate me.

I’m fine with that

[SelfMadeMan]

I've come full circle in my religious (and now happily NOT religious) beliefs, and I don't believe in the concept of heaven or hell the way Christianity would have me buy into it. I am a born again agnostic and I can't help but think that belief in a religious afterlife keeps one from fully living in the here and now. I hear people all the time say not to focus on their "worldly life" and to remain focused on the afterlife... that just doesn't sit well with me. What if they're wrong? What if you deny yourself all your life, and live life the way some book or preacher tells you to, only to get to the end and there be nothing? If I'm wrong, I will have lived one hell of a full, fun life - and have lived it the way I choose, doing what makes me happy & complete.. and I'll take whatever comes in the end. I still feel better about my option. I am a positive person, I try to do for others, live a good life, I am a good parent, husband, friend... I am a decent person. So if I'm wrong, I can look back on my life and know that I left love behind.

[Soft*Silver]

I worry naught about what lies beyond. I worry Now what I am presently part of, and if I am doing all I can to make this world a better place, to do as little harm as others and to be a responsible human. If there is a hell, I will be so disappointed in that kind of God. He is no better than a slum lord....

[Andrew, Jr.]

I do believe in Heaven and Hell. I think that how you live your life here will determine your after-life. It is something that always have thought and believed in. It is my hope, desire, and prayers said that this is my truth - nobody else's, mine alone. I believe that there are tiers in Heaven and Hell. Like the famous saying, you reap what you sew, that determines your after-life tier.

[Venus007]

There is no destination hell or heaven, there is only this life and what we make of it NOW. There is no grand reward or punishment there is only this life and for 75 (if we are lucky) years we make our way, pay our consequences, accept our lot, revel in joy and suffer in sorrow, flow in love. All of it is NOW, a fleeting, glorious, heart breaking, careening, amazing, joyful ride through time to the end.
Amazing, isn't it?

[Odarlin]

Originally Posted by Boots13

...
And when the shit hits the fan and I'm half a breath away from oblivion I need to know that while I am struggling, fighting, thinking, reacting clawing my way to survival, I can also call out from the depths of that immediate hell and hope the hand of something greater is poised to dispatch a little mercy....I want Heaven to be funky, vast, exploding
with life, light, knowledge, love and painless...make it painless.

And why do I think Heaven is inexplicably tied to Divine Intervention?

I want heaven to be directly connected to the hand of something greater than I. That "recovering Catholic" part of me needs to believe in that small detail. But NOT for the reasons of doing good, or the threat of molten
punishment, but more so wanting to know that the people and pets that I love, who have passed before me, are in a kinder, pain free place.

And after all that I'm where I usually end up after thinking about it...I'm less inclined to be guided by thoughts of Heaven or Hell and more apt to live my days contemplating Hope, Divine Intervention, Karma, blessings, Love and Right Action.

Compassion is extraordinary. The rest is details...

But, but... that's where the devil dwells!


(Love this post. )

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Lastly, I think that the idea of an afterlife encourages us to not fully live and appreciate our lives now.

This! And:

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

One last thing about heaven and hell. While it may make folks uncomfortable to have this pointed out, largely heaven and hell are seen as reward or punishment.

This!

I am here to live my life now, with as much integrity and honesty as I can because I believe that's how quality is achieved, for both myself and those around me. Not because of some threat or promise of a comeuppance in an afterlife.