2012 US General Election Discussions: Start to Finish

[Vanessa Emma Goldman]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

GOP = Grand Old Party = Republican Party

or as i prefer to call them: Greedy Old Patriarchs!

unfortunately, the Demos are not much better especially when it comes to taking bribes from, and then being indebted to, Big Corporate Capitalism. i voted for Ralph Nader in 2000, took a lot of crap for it from other left of center people, and so held my nose and voted for Demos at the top of the ticket (USA President or Michigan Governor depending on the year). and i continue to be horribly disappointed, both by President Obama and by former Michigan Governor Granholm.

so once again i am debating whether to keep voting for the Evil of Two Lessers Democrats, or just say to hell with them and vote strictly for Greens, Socialists, or other real progressives who do not take bribes from the top one percent. and i am leaning heavily towards the Green/Socialist/other real progressives option. yes, i know, they probably won't win and maybe Repubs will end up winning. but even when Demos do win, it seems like the real winners end up being the Greedy Old Patriarchs.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Vanessa Emma Goldman

or as i prefer to call them: Greedy Old Patriarchs!

unfortunately, the Demos are not much better especially when it comes to taking bribes from, and then being indebted to, Big Corporate Capitalism. i voted for Ralph Nader in 2000, took a lot of crap for it from other left of center people, and so held my nose and voted for Demos at the top of the ticket (USA President or Michigan Governor depending on the year). and i continue to be horribly disappointed, both by President Obama and by former Michigan Governor Granholm.

so once again i am debating whether to keep voting for the Evil of Two Lessers Democrats, or just say to hell with them and vote strictly for Greens, Socialists, or other real progressives who do not take bribes from the top one percent. and i am leaning heavily towards the Green/Socialist/other real progressives option. yes, i know, they probably won't win and maybe Repubs will end up winning. but even when Demos do win, it seems like the real winners end up being the Greedy Old Patriarchs.

I had, largely, stopped voting Democratic in the 90s. I did vote for Clinton in '92 (my first ever vote for a Democrat, I voted Republican in 88 and would have done the same in 84 had I been 18) but in '96 and 2000 I voted Green. IF the GOP were not complete enthrall to a radical pseudo-libertarian ideology that covered up some theocratic memes, I would probably vote for a third party. The problem is that, at this point, the choice is no longer between the lesser of two evils but between a feckless but generally well-intentioned party (the Democrats) and an effective but generally malevolent party that appears, taking them at their word, to be trying to bring about a plutocratic theocracy.

It is not that I think the GOP elites--the old-money elites--want a theocracy. I don't believe they do--a robber-baron plutocracy but not a theocracy. The GOP base, on the other hand, does want a theocracy. If the GOP elites had the same relationship to their base as the Democratic elites have to theirs, that might not be so worrisome. The problem is that the relationships are fundamentally different. The GOP elites fear their base, the Democrats hate their base. Ultimately, this means that in the long run the GOP will try to substantially appease their base by moving their agenda down the road a bit while the Democratic party will try to simply convince their base that they are on their side while not actually trying to move the agenda anywhere.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I had, largely, stopped voting Democratic in the 90s. I did vote for Clinton in '92 (my first ever vote for a Democrat, I voted Republican in 88 and would have done the same in 84 had I been 18) but in '96 and 2000 I voted Green. IF the GOP were not complete enthrall to a radical pseudo-libertarian ideology that covered up some theocratic memes, I would probably vote for a third party. The problem is that, at this point, the choice is no longer between the lesser of two evils but between a feckless but generally well-intentioned party (the Democrats) and an effective but generally malevolent party that appears, taking them at their word, to be trying to bring about a plutocratic theocracy.

It is not that I think the GOP elites--the old-money elites--want a theocracy. I don't believe they do--a robber-baron plutocracy but not a theocracy. The GOP base, on the other hand, does want a theocracy. If the GOP elites had the same relationship to their base as the Democratic elites have to theirs, that might not be so worrisome. The problem is that the relationships are fundamentally different. The GOP elites fear their base, the Democrats hate their base. Ultimately, this means that in the long run the GOP will try to substantially appease their base by moving their agenda down the road a bit while the Democratic party will try to simply convince their base that they are on their side while not actually trying to move the agenda anywhere.

Cheers
Aj

Yes, a theocracy is very much what the GOP wants. I don't think this was true decades ago, but true now. And I no longer recognize the Democratic Party as having any substance.

As the news of S & P's (even though it hasn't much of a track record) down grade of the US settles in- I am more discusted with both parties as they simply continue the blame game and can't see the forest for the trees in terms of what the rating agencies are really trying to get across- that Congressional dysfunction really is taking down our economy which will hurt us all in various ways. Every single one of us.

I used to be able to see some reason to back the Dems due to social ideology- but I no longer feel that way. They, as well as the GOP, never offer substantive answers to our problems, only partisan babble.

For the very first time in my adult life, I do feel helpless and hopeless about the US political system. Neither major party has one ounce of integrity left or the ability to see past party lines in order to effect the changes that are needed.

I do want a Congressional shake-up (including of far left-wing progressives that won't compromise), but not of religious zealotry and judgement- and that seems to be the only game in town.

There was so much fresh, new hope in the 2008 general election along with a sense that there really could be change that reflects the needs and challenges of the 21st Century.

And in all of this, the debt-ceiling bill we ended up with is only going to get us more of the same Congressional dysfunction and gridlock- and more fringe ideology from both the right and the left.